Care costs

anexuser

.Sorry if this is posted in the wrong thread, but my mind is all over the place at the moment.

My Mum and step dad own a small house, valued at around £50k. A few months ago my step dad went into a care home, and my Mum stayed in their house.

My step dad has a private pension from his former employer of about £600 per month, along with his state pension. He has a small amount of savings - less than £5000. He currently pays most of his private pension, and a proportion of his state pension to pay for the care home, which is about 50% of the total fee. The value of the house is disregarded as my mum is still living in it.

Unfortunately however my Mum has just been told she has cancer, and the prognosis doesn't look good.
Both my Mum and step dad have wills leaving everything to myself and my sister, with the proviso that the surviving spouse is allowed to stay in the house. Obviously, however, my step dad will not be using the house. My Mum has a small amount of savings in her own name - I am not sure how much but it is certainly no more than £10,000.

My Mum is now worried that the house will be sold and the proceeds will go to pay for my step dad's care costs, leaving my sister and I with nothing.

Is this likely to happen? I have tried telling her that it really does not matter, but it is upsetting her.

Not being in any way legally minded I would assume that the house would have to be sold and my Mum's 'half' would be split between my sister and I, and the other 'half' would go towards my step dad's care home fees until this amount drops below about £20,000, at which time he would revert to paying just his pensions.

Am I right? If not, what is likely to happen?

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can give.

p00hsticks

I think you'll first need to find out whether your mum and dad own the house as 'joint tenants' (both share the whole house, and if one dies it automatically passes to the other regardless of any will) or as 'tenants in common' (each owns half of the house and their will determine what happens when the owner dies).

If your parents aren't sure, you can find out by checking the land registry entry for the property...

http://www.beneficentlaw.co.uk/uploads/1/0/7/5/10755464/sample_title_register.pdf.

Keep_pedalling

If your mum and SD own the house as tenants in common then they will own a percentage each and if your mum should die before him then, you would need to sell the house, and your mother's share would pass to you and your sibling and your SF's share would add to his savings.

Assuming it is a 50/50 split then this would take his savings would pass the £23,250 limit and he would become self funding until his savings dropped back to the limit, so in effect your inheritance would be cut by around £7000 but you would still receive the bulk of it.

If on the other hand they hold the property as joint tenants then the surviving partner will automatically own all of the house, and if that is your SF you stand to lose a lot more, so you need to confirm how they currently hold the property.

securityguy

"so you need to confirm how they currently hold the property."

But there isn't, in truth, a lot you could actually do about it, because any change to the tenancy now would be pretty clear deprivation of assets. I'm normally of the opinion that this is invoked as a paper tiger in circumstances when it is unlikely to apply, but once someone is actually in care and being funded by the state (ie, not that there is a prospect of care, or a prospect of being self-funding, but the care is happening already and the person receiving it is not self-funding) then any change to the allocation of their assets would be challenged by the local authority, and it's hard to see how they wouldn't win.

It's possible the house is already held as tenants in common, because you imply it's the result of re-marriage and in those circumstances tenant in common is less unusual. But it's relatively rare for married couples of your parents' generation to hold houses as anything other than joint tenants or, in many cases, solely in the husband's name.

But as I say, any attempt to change the tenancy now would be a legal minefield, and it's highly unlikely that it would withstand challenge.

anexuser

How do you know from the land registry information whether or not it is tenants in common or joint tenants?

The LR extract says registered owners to be my mum (in her previous married name) and my step dad. There is no mention anywhere that I can see that states the type of ownership, so I am not sure how to check this.

The will was drawn up by a solicitor a few years ago, so is the ownership situation likely to have been checked at the time if it could potentially cause a problem later?

Keep_pedalling

I'm sure someone will come along with an answer to that question,but as SG states you can't do much about changing anything now, I only suggested checking out the situation so you had all the facts at your disposal.

You mother is the one who is worrying about this, so in your situation I would simple reassure her that the all of her estate and most of your SFs estate will still go to yourselves and you are not worried that just a little bit of it going towards his care costs. If in the end it turns out they were joint tenants then she will never have known and will be saved from wasting her presious time worrying about something that is not really important as far as you are concerned.

Mojisola

securityguy wrote: »

"so you need to confirm how they currently hold the property."

But there isn't, in truth, a lot you could actually do about it, because any change to the tenancy now would be pretty clear deprivation of assets.

Either party can break a joint tenancy. If the OP's mother does this and is the first to die, then deprivation of assets won't be an issue because the person claiming benefits didn't give anything away.

securityguy

"Either party can break a joint tenancy."

They can, but deprivation of assets actions are allowed to look at the intent of otherwise lawful transactions. The deprivation of assets in this case would arise because a share potentially worth a great deal more than 50% was ending up as a share worth 50%, and the question would be asked as to how the split in value (which is usually the product of mutual negotiation or a court) was arrived at.

Mojisola

securityguy wrote: »

"Either party can break a joint tenancy."

They can, but deprivation of assets actions are allowed to look at the intent of otherwise lawful transactions. The deprivation of assets in this case would arise because a share potentially worth a great deal more than 50% was ending up as a share worth 50%, and the question would be asked as to how the split in value (which is usually the product of mutual negotiation or a court) was arrived at.

I don't see how one joint tenant could claim to own more than 50% of a property. If a couple didn't own the property equally, they would have been tenants in common from the beginning.

In the OP's case, the step-dad wouldn't have had any intention at all - it's his spouse who is severing the joint tenancy.

troubleinparadise

securityguy wrote: »

"Either party can break a joint tenancy."

They can, but deprivation of assets actions are allowed to look at the intent of otherwise lawful transactions. The deprivation of assets in this case would arise because a share potentially worth a great deal more than 50% was ending up as a share worth 50%, and the question would be asked as to how the split in value (which is usually the product of mutual negotiation or a court) was arrived at.

Security Guy - can you reference where you got your information from re deprivation of assets and changing to tenants in common?

The Gov UK site suggests this is acceptable even if the original joint tenant is unable or does not wish to agree to the change to tenants in common.

A financial assessment is usually only based on the person being assessed's assets at that time, not on future potential gains from the death of another person; it may well reveal past disposal of assets to reduce capital, which would be deprivation.

DigForVictory

anexuser - I'm so sorry for the situation you find yourself in - it sounds very very hard.
You can at least figure the facts, tenants in common or joint.
Then, focus on just loving & reassuring your mum as best you both can.

Of course she wants to leave you something, and if the deeds are already cooperative, great. If not, she's stuck and needs you to help her by reassuring her that it's not important, relatively.

Get the facts, then if necessary ignore them, and focus on your folks?!
It's not a good situation: I wish you all the best.