civil enforcement ltd - LBA and claim form

Kgf1982

So, we are joining the ranks of those coming under attack from CEL for old PCNs!

The offence happened back in 2003 (we think!) when my husband pulled over in a private paying car park to wait for me on a delayed train back from work. We cannot remember the detail as it was so long ago, but he was at a guess pulled up for 15 minutes tops. PCN followed and under advice that he read at the time, was ignored. In Autumn this year, we received a follow up letter, which we ignored, and then on 4th December a letter before action, which my husband ignored. It was the standard form that everyone is posting, with no detail other than the name of the car park. Today, a claim form landed on the door mat. No particular of claim were attached - they will apparently follow within 14 days. I have filed an acknowledgment of service. The only correspondence that my husband has retained is the letter before action, we have nothing prior to that.

Despite the claim having been filed, I have suggested my husband sends a short letter posted first thing tomorrow to CEL requesting further information on the alleged claim, so we know what we are actually defending. I know standard procedure is to reply within 14 days but that is not set in stone and can be extended up to 3 months for a complex case, so I think it is worth our getting on the record that we have tried to request more info and also for them to realise we aren't going to pay up to their £260 demand! I guess I am wondering whether they are just making these court applications without bothering to file PoC in the hope that people will be scared into paying up - maybe we will never even receive any PoC when we don't (wishful thinking?!)

The issue I wanted thoughts on at the moment is whether I am right in thinking that because this was a paying private car park Beavis will not apply? CEL are of course heavily quoting it and have kindly attached a poorly photocopied summary to the back of their letter....

Many thanks

Redx

I doubt it was 2003 , 6 years is the maximum time under small claims, not 13 years , lol !

perhaps you mean 2013 ? after POFA2012 came in and so you should have appealed it back then and taken it to popla if refused

so if you now have an official court claim (where from ? Northampton , Salford or a county court ? ) then read and follow the advice given to this poster in a similar but UKPC claim

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5397895

prepare a skeleton defence etc , then you will be asking for copies of the paperwork in due course, via the court, so wait until then

differences to the Beavis case will need pointing out, bearing in mid that judges will still use that case as a precedent unless you can prove differences exist and should be taken into account, plus POFA2012 discrepancies , no locus standii , poor signage etc too

hoohoo

The particulars of claim which will eventually arrive will state the date of parking, vehicle reg and give a filleted version of the signage which is biased towards CEL.

Everyone gets the same particulars, with a few badly mailmerged fields.

Coupon-mad

I have suggested my husband sends a short letter posted first thing tomorrow to CEL requesting further information on the alleged claim, so we know what we are actually defending.

Have a look at Part 18 requests, as posted here by IamEmanResu recently and there are several on pepipoo (Google search 'pepipoo Part 18').

Keep this thread updated and we'll help. You can also post on pepipoo forum to get more views.

Kgf1982

Thanks all for the help so far.

We have still received no particulars of claim, which were due by Monday at the latest. The court have unhelpfully advised me that I still need to submit a defence, unless I wish to pay £50 to have the claim struck out.... Has anyone encountered this before? I am not sure quite what to say in the defence as there are literally no details on the claim form - it just says:

"Outstanding debt and damages
Date - 31.5.13
Ref - 628888eeeetc
Amount - £125
Date due - 31.5.13

And then the general blurb about interest etc. And the promise to send detailed particulars within 14 days.

I know the PoC wouldn't say much even if they did arrive, but as it is I don't feel it would be right to reel out the standard defences or even really say anything in the defence beyond 'the defendant has failed to provide any particulars (despite a request) and we don't understand the basis of their claim' so please strike it out!!!

Any thoughts?

Many thanks

Redx

the latter third of post #1 of the NEWBIES sticky thread details court claims, with advice and links to defences etc

you need to draft a skeleton defence for now, that details the short bullet points you will be defending the claim on (this has to be by the person named on the court claim)

you had 28 days after the claim date to do this online on the MCOL website

there is a skeleton defence by bargepole you can adapt

there is also one in parking pranksters court book too

you appear to have missed both of them for some strange reason

so get it done asap

I assume you acknowledged the claim

CEL are hoping you will await their non-existent reply and therefore time out on this defence deadline

forget CEL for now, defend the court claim and later on you can demand the info you require from CEL, via the court claim

Kgf1982

thank you. i have not failed to see any skeleton defences, the points is that I don't see the point in or how I can draft a defence to a claim that has not been stated in any way. To do so will make it obvious that I am just copying advice from forums. And most of the draft defences make no sense in the circumstances as they respond to points raised in the PoC, which we have not received. CEL have already timed out on the PoC deadline.

I have submitted an acknowledgement of service and have 28 days from when the claim was served (ie still almost two weeks) to file a defence (in fact, it is 28 days from the service of their PoC, which has not arrived, so the timing is a moot point anyway).

Considering just putting in a defence that says the following:

1. The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:
(a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the Claim Form issues on 20 January 2016
(b) failed to provide Particulars of Claim within 14 days of the date of service of that Claim Form, thus making it impossible for the Defendant to prepare any form of defence; and
(c) failed to respond to a letter from the Defendant dated 21 January requesting further information and details of the claim

2. In the circumstances, the Defendant invites the Court to strike out the claim.

I believe the facts stated in this defence are true

Redx

the trouble is that if you did the above, you have not questioned other points like

no locus standii,
poor or incorrect signage that fails the BPA CoP etc
other BPA CoP issues like say GRACE PERIODS ,
not a GPEOL etc ,

all are probably relevant and their omission would mean you cannot add them later

you should also be asking that the dispute be resolved by a suitable ADR and you suggest popla by the Ombudsman Service be used for ADR to avoid wasting the courts time (which should have been used in the first place if this is later than september 2012 and not 2003 like you said in a much earlier post - your last post seems to indicate it was 2013)- in any case ADR by the Ombudsman Service would be suitable if the judge allowed it

my point ?

put them in anyway to safeguard yourself and then if necessary expand upon them later

ie:- its a parking invoice, so submit skeleton defence points based on the common legal defence points used at popla and in court against parking charges/invoices

if you dont use these points later fine, but do not miss them out and regret it later

ps:- these lack of claim details were mentioned on parking pranksters blogsite recently too

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/update-on-michael-schwartz-now-of-civil.html

and

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/civil-enforcement-limited-discontinue.html

and

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/civil-enforcement-limited-carry-out.html

Quentin

Kgf1982 wrote: »

... the points is that I don't see the point in or how I can draft a defence to a claim that has not been stated in any way. ......

What are you asking then?

Kgf1982

I am asking whether anyone has been in a similar position with receiving no PoC and how they proceeded.

Thanks Redx - I see your point, and will also be asking the court for leave to amend the defence should CEL actually provide any particulars at any point. Yes, 2013, you are correct, and I am well aware that it shouldn't have just been ignored - speak to my husband!

henrik777

I would contact the claimant and point out their failure. Contact the court and ask them if they have received them and to put a note on the file that you have not received them and default judgement should not be allowed (which shouldn't need your stating but it's always good to have it on record so to speak).

Then wait and see if the 4 month back stop comes in to play.

You could make an application now but if they respond they'll probably get relief and an extension.