Disciplinary Hearing - Advice Needed

fozzeh

Just need a bit of advice for a friend (and yes, although cliche, it is a friend).

Basically, he sent a banter e-mail (non-offensive to intended recipients) but unintentionally copied in a senior manager (3 levels above him) and she wasn’t too impressed. After discussions (with 2 other managers and HR), he has a meeting next week which will probably be a verbal warning.

It was seen as non-humourous (it referred to someone brown-nosing) and I can see it being applied as a waste of company time and also misuse of e-mails.

So, for him, any advice? Should he be getting testimonials from those who received it? Should he even bother to appeal the decision as too harsh (I personally feel they are taking a high line and strict approach)? What’s his best course of action? Should he take someone in (he’s decided not to)?

Long term effect is he’ll lose his bonus next year and it’ll stay on record for 2.

Any input (like testimonials) would be great today.

Thanks in advance.

sangie595

fozzeh wrote: »

Just need a bit of advice for a friend (and yes, although cliche, it is a friend).

Basically, he sent a banter e-mail (non-offensive to intended recipients) but unintentionally copied in a senior manager (3 levels above him) and she wasn’t too impressed. After discussions (with 2 other managers and HR), he has a meeting next week which will probably be a verbal warning.

It was seen as non-humourous (it referred to someone brown-nosing) and I can see it being applied as a waste of company time and also misuse of e-mails.

So, for him, any advice? Should he be getting testimonials from those who received it? Should he even bother to appeal the decision as too harsh (I personally feel they are taking a high line and strict approach)? What’s his best course of action? Should he take someone in (he’s decided not to)?

Long term effect is he’ll lose his bonus next year and it’ll stay on record for 2.

Any input (like testimonials) would be great today.

Thanks in advance.

He did it. Genuine remorse at being so stupid is the way to go. Trying to claim it doesn't matter (the employer obviously thinks it does) or that the people it was supposed to go to (which weren't the only ones who got it) were not bothered by his comments (so dropping themselves in it as complicit to the comments) is likely to annoy further and possibly make the outcome worse.

If he loses his bonus then perhaps that will have sufficient impact to remind him that in future the best plan is to say nothing if you have nothing good to say. It's refreshing to see that idiocy by email still exists though - I was under the impression that everyone was being sacked for their comments on Facebook now. You might want to (a) remind him that email can be monitored by the employer even if he doesn't send the messages to the mangers by accident and (b) before he thinks of doing it, warn him that Facebook comments are no better. If you want to whinge about your employer or your colleagues, do it quietly, in the corner of a pub, where nobody can catch you.

fozzeh

sangie595 wrote: »

He did it. Genuine remorse at being so stupid is the way to go. Trying to claim it doesn't matter (the employer obviously thinks it does) or that the people it was supposed to go to (which weren't the only ones who got it) were not bothered by his comments (so dropping themselves in it as complicit to the comments) is likely to annoy further and possibly make the outcome worse.

If he loses his bonus then perhaps that will have sufficient impact to remind him that in future the best plan is to say nothing if you have nothing good to say. It's refreshing to see that idiocy by email still exists though - I was under the impression that everyone was being sacked for their comments on Facebook now. You might want to (a) remind him that email can be monitored by the employer even if he doesn't send the messages to the mangers by accident and (b) before he thinks of doing it, warn him that Facebook comments are no better. If you want to whinge about your employer or your colleagues, do it quietly, in the corner of a pub, where nobody can catch you.

Oh, there’s no denying it! I think he’s gone down the route of being pessimistic on the matter, so he obviously needs to show more remorse.

The e-mail sent was totally innocuous. The recipients would have found it funny, it wouldn’t have bothered them in the slightest and they’d have seen the funny side. It’s quite a good close team who all know the boundaries of what to say.

Unfortunately, one of the people within the discussion of the receipt of the e-mail doesn’t find many things (mainly ‘banter’) as funny. On severity scale, I’d say it was a 2/10 for ‘closeness to the knuckle’.

I, personally, think he should get a slap on the wrists.

Starlet

From what you have described, it seems as though 'banter' emails have been sent fairly often among themselves. Can your friend find any other similar emails in his Inbox, to show that the dynamics or level of closeness between the intended recipients is deemed normal and therefore he can try to show that he was not intending to cross any professional boundaries. (I hope that my comment makes sense!)

elsien

What he said clearly wasn't appropriate as it's led to a disciplinary. And however harmless this particular instance was, so-called banter can also be thinly or not so thinly disguised ways of having a dig or excluding people. People may say they're ok with it when they're not because to speak up singles them out even more. And in this case if I've read it right he's been sending emails to colleagues about another team member. So regardless of whether the recipients find it amusing or not, he's dragged someone else into it by making them the subject of the email. That's not professional, and maybe that's why the employer is taking this approach.

sangie595

fozzeh wrote: »

Oh, there’s no denying it! I think he’s gone down the route of being pessimistic on the matter, so he obviously needs to show more remorse.

The e-mail sent was totally innocuous. The recipients would have found it funny, it wouldn’t have bothered them in the slightest and they’d have seen the funny side. It’s quite a good close team who all know the boundaries of what to say.

Unfortunately, one of the people within the discussion of the receipt of the e-mail doesn’t find many things (mainly ‘banter’) as funny. On severity scale, I’d say it was a 2/10 for ‘closeness to the knuckle’.

I, personally, think he should get a slap on the wrists.

I think you are missing the entire point of your own defence of your friend. "It was only banter" is the first line of defence for every bigot and bully. If you have to explain that it was "only" something, that in itself means that at some fundamental level you know that something is wrong - "it was only banter", "it was only a slap", "it was only a joke".

And as for the suggestion of starting to look through past emails to find evidence that other people have sent such emails to prove it is "normal" - well it isn't "normal" because the employer clearly doesn't support this sort of activity, and the only benefit in such a strategy would be to drop the others in a disciplinary too. It isn't "normal", and it isn't "right", and if being disciplined for it hasn't made that abundantly clear to everyone already, then allowing the employer to gain evidence that an entire group of people are doing this sort of thing on a regular basis - well, I am seeing this going from a warning for one person to dismissal for an entire group of people.

Making and circulating a derogatory statement about a colleague, whilst misusing the company email and presumably not actually working since the employer clearly doesn't see this as work activity, could be viewed as a lot worse He's actually going to be pretty lucky to get a warning - it could have been a final one, or even dismissal. You may not see this as all that serious, but I am afraid that many employers would, and tribunals would tend to agree with them on the matter. There isn't a sliding scale of 10 is not acceptable but 2 is, It is all unacceptable behaviour at work.

fozzeh

Starlet wrote: »

From what you have described, it seems as though 'banter' emails have been sent fairly often among themselves. Can your friend find any other similar emails in his Inbox, to show that the dynamics or level of closeness between the intended recipients is deemed normal and therefore he can try to show that he was not intending to cross any professional boundaries. (I hope that my comment makes sense!)

He can find plenty haha. Getting them all out in the public though would open another can of worms for those involved (there’s a group of 7 who are involved in the ‘banter group’). A good point though.

elsien wrote: »

What he said clearly wasn't appropriate as it's led to a disciplinary. And however harmless this particular instance was, so-called banter can also be thinly or not so thinly disguised ways of having a dig or excluding people. People may say they're ok with it when they're not because to speak up singles them out even more. And in this case if I've read it right he's been sending emails to colleagues about another team member. So regardless of whether the recipients find it amusing or not, he's dragged someone else into it by making them the subject of the email. That's not professional, and maybe that's why the employer is taking this approach.

No, no, it wasn’t excluding people. The person it was aimed at was the intended recipient! If she wasn’t included, I’d fully agree and I wouldn’t have even bothered because that would be derogatory. It was just the unintentional person copied in.

sangie595 wrote: »

I think you are missing the entire point of your own defence of your friend. "It was only banter" is the first line of defence for every bigot and bully. If you have to explain that it was "only" something, that in itself means that at some fundamental level you know that something is wrong - "it was only banter", "it was only a slap", "it was only a joke".
And as for the suggestion of starting to look through past emails to find evidence that other people have sent such emails to prove it is "normal" - well it isn't "normal" because the employer clearly doesn't support this sort of activity, and the only benefit in such a strategy would be to drop the others in a disciplinary too. It isn't "normal", and it isn't "right", and if being disciplined for it hasn't made that abundantly clear to everyone already, then allowing the employer to gain evidence that an entire group of people are doing this sort of thing on a regular basis - well, I am seeing this going from a warning for one person to dismissal for an entire group of people.
Making and circulating a derogatory statement about a colleague, whilst misusing the company email and presumably not actually working since the employer clearly doesn't see this as work activity, could be viewed as a lot worse He's actually going to be pretty lucky to get a warning - it could have been a final one, or even dismissal. You may not see this as all that serious, but I am afraid that many employers would, and tribunals would tend to agree with them on the matter. There isn't a sliding scale of 10 is not acceptable but 2 is, It is all unacceptable behaviour at work.

See above (regarding recipients).

But yes, getting others involved (as said) wouldn’t be good for everyone else. It never goes outside the circle.

Fully understand what you’re saying and what I have said is more to highlight what has happened. I just mainly want to know if there’s anything he can do. I full know well what he has done is stupid; one for doing it (but, as said, some friendly comradery isn’t amiss between the people who send and receive them) and two for getting caught.

And as for the “normal” comment; anything outside of the regime is deemed as detrimental to the cause. And yes, there is quite a strict ruling…more than anything I’ve known in my 10 years of working!

ohreally

fozzeh wrote: »

Basically, he sent a banter e-mail (non-offensive to intended recipients) but unintentionally copied in a senior manager (3 levels above him) and she wasn’t too impressed. After discussions (with 2 other managers and HR), he has a meeting next week which will probably be a verbal warning

Not advice but my thoughts....

Depending on disciplinary policy, there may be a contamination of process issue if the recipient manager has already involved the above in advance of a hearing - given this who will now hear the case?

You imply if there is a hearing, the sanction is pre-determined.

This and more then forms part of the appeal case.

No investigation to uncover the can of worms?

That aside, him and the clique probably deserve what's coming.

DKLS

Op tell your mate to feign remorse, tug his forelock, apologise and promise it was a moment of madness and will never do it again.

And then don't send banter in email, it can so easily be mis-construed by the sensitive souls in the office. Better to set up a private whatsapp group for bants. In this case I suggest he keeps his head down for a while and it should all blow over.

polgara

Officer 'banter' is great - it keeps me in a job! Seriously, even if the clique all get on well and its all acceptable to the group it may be going against the values of the organisation. Also, all it takes is one person to fall out of favour/have a disagreement with someone else and then all that email/facebook banter becomes evidence for a potential disciplinary.

robatwork

One man's banter is another man's bigotry.

Perhaps you can paste in what your colleague emailled, redacted as necessary. Then you can get an honest opinion on if this is more serious than just a bit of misuse of resources.