Tax Credits

Sapphire

ProudDad wrote: »

I also find your punishment of the deserving poor rather harsh it is these who deserve our help and they shouldn't just be shoved into the gutter and told to reorganise their lives, you never know a flip of a coin and that could be you one day and I am sure you would want the help of the state. I for one believe the transfer of income from the wealthy to the needy is a core function of the state especially to those who need it. It's those who don't we need to clamp down on.

Note that I put 'deserving' and 'poor' in inverted commas. This means that my remarks were not addressed to the truly deserving and poor, though no one in this country is really 'poor' (cue, of course, the next statement, that 'poverty is relevant'), hence why so many migrants wish to come here. The examples of 'deserving' people I mentioned included the disabled, the elderly who have put in all their lives, many of whom are living in terrible conditions now, and former soldiers who are having trouble readjusting to life.

I do not consider those who selfishly churn out children without a thought to the consequences to taxpayers (or, in fact, to their children) to be either 'deserving' or 'poor', and do not feel that taxpayers should be supporting their lifestyle choices. Living within one's means should be ingrained in people from an early age.

zagfles

ProudDad wrote: »

Also agree that it is only those who really need benefits who should get them however your assessment of who needs them doesn't sit quite right with me. Certain benefits targeted at the elderly could be limited like a winter fuel allowance that is universal and giving bus passes/taxi cards to every over 60. I know they have worked all their lives often through harder times that we have ever experienced and should be applauded for that however shouldn't be rewarded to the detriment of everyone else, however I do agree with ring fencing all other old age benefits. I also find your punishment of the deserving poor rather harsh it is these who deserve our help and they shouldn't just be shoved into the gutter and told to reorganise their lives, you never know a flip of a coin and that could be you one day and I am sure you would want the help of the state. I for one believe the transfer of income from the wealthy to the needy is a core function of the state especially to those who need it. It's those who don't we need to clamp down on.

You're contradicting yourself.

If you think "only those who really need benefits who should get them" then you should be delighted with the tax credits changes. Those right at the bottom, who earn nothing, are not affected at all. It's those who go out and work who are affected. But they'll still end up with more money in total than those who don't work. It's just the differential is being reduced.

On the other hand, if you think work should pay, you believe in the concept of rewarding work, then these changes make a bad situation worse. The marginal deduction rates for those on the lowest income are being increased.

MFW_ASAP

missyrichards wrote: »

I was just looking at the Guardian article, why is someone with a masters degree only earning £15k a year?

That's my question too. It doesn't seem fair that some people choose a relaxed and stress free job, a part time job so they have more time with the kids or to pursue hobbies or no job at all (for the same reasons) and yet expect th rest of us to stay in our stressful jobs and subsidize them.

It also grates on me when they talk about their 'income' and how a reduction in tax credits is reducing it. Tax credits are benefits not income, it's not earned. It's effectively charity that they are happy to accept to subsidize their lack of ambition.

michaels

andrewmp wrote: »

It doesn't feel like that to me. Nobody where I work has had a pay rise for at least 5 years.

I don't think any of us have any info that would allow us to challenge the acuracy of the ONS statistics nor the methodology that they follow.

However I am sure there may be a discussion to be had about the distribution of pay changes. Is a regional and by income distribution breakdown of the average income data available? Are income increases skewed towards those further up the income distribution?

Prudent

missyrichards wrote: »

I was just looking at the Guardian article, why is someone with a masters degree only earning £15k a year?

She has rheumatoid arthritis which limits her earning capacity. I have two long term health conditions which impact on my earning ability. I don't claim tax credits, but it has been a real struggle at times. I am very thankful I discovered MSE many years ago and it has helped me save and prepare for my current situation in which I am moving from full to part time employment. Although I do agree with MFW that the tax credit system feels unfair to those who work as much as possible.

martinsurrey

andrewmp wrote: »

It doesn't feel like that to me. Nobody where I work has had a pay rise for at least 5 years.

don't confuse weather with climate.

Generali

missyrichards wrote: »

I was just looking at the Guardian article, why is someone with a masters degree only earning £15k a year?

Presumably because they didn't learn their lesson after doing their undergrad degree that if you study something that people won't get paid for you won't get paid.

jimibaboza

beecher2 wrote: »

For me personally, it was an eye opener how large the payments were.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-credits-entitlement-tables-working-at-least-16-hours-and-paying-childcare/tax-credits-entitlement-tables-working-at-least-16-hours-and-paying-childcare

I'm a little confused by this. Does that mean a couple with two kids with a joint income of 11K will get about 15K a year in tax cradits?

zagfles

jimibaboza wrote: »

I'm a little confused by this. Does that mean a couple with two kids with a joint income of 11K will get about 15K a year in tax cradits?

Or more, it'd be about £20k with max childcare! Both parents would need to work at least 16 hours, but 16 hours at NMW times 2 is about £11k.

Also there's nothing to say the childcare has to be while they're at work, believe it or not!

andrewmp

martinsurrey wrote: »

don't confuse weather with climate.

Aye, the weather and climate is terrible in this area. Maybe the recovery will hit here (the north east) soon.