Tax Credits

CLAPTON

ProudDad wrote: »

So glad you finally seen the point of post earlier. I don't worry for myself because I may be hit harder than others but am most able to take the hit in the first place however it is those at the bottom who are struggling with low pay, zero hour contracts and a host of other things that we should be worried for.

It's those people that closest to the edge that have the furthest to fall that will feel it most. If these changes aren't implemented properly they will be picking up the pieces for years afterwards.

well that is certainly a point of view

it is already so that for many there is no incentive to work at all

children are brought up in households where no-one works and the
children won't go to school and see minor crime, drugs, drinking and hanging around all as 'normal'
the benefits system encourages broken homes too.

any changes will almost certainly have some 'worthy' people that lose.

I'm not sure what 'edge' or 'fall' or 'picking up the pieces for years afterwards' actually mean. Do you mean the car is repossessed?

ProudDad

CLAPTON wrote: »

well that is certainly a point of view

it is already so that for many there is no incentive to work at all

children are brought up in households where no-one works and the
children won't go to school and see minor crime, drugs, drinking and hanging around all as 'normal'
the benefits system encourages broken homes too.

any changes will almost certainly have some 'worthy' people that lose.

I'm not sure what 'edge' or 'fall' or 'picking up the pieces for years afterwards' actually mean. Do you mean the car is repossessed?

I suppose I wasn't really talking about those that don't work but those who without incentive go to work long hours on low pay as they know it's the right thing to do. These people receive tax credits and rightly so, with these cuts and the phased changes in minimum wage and tax threshold they will suffer most in the interim.

The government are quite happy it would appear to remove these tax credits from their citizens over night while phasing in their own reduction in income(through gradual increase in personal allowance) and phasing in the increased costs to employers(through the phased change from national minimum to national living wage).

The examples you give regarding non working households and broken families is a seperate societal issue which does also need to be dealt with.


In terms of the analogy I gave edge is amount people earn when on tax credits where the amount the receive starts to go down due to tapering, as these people are already living hand to mouth so any reducation will hit them hardest(hence the fall) and we will end up with more people who although they want to work don't because they are penalised for doing so and for years after we will all being paying for that mistake.

Yes this is a huge opportunity for welfare in this country to be reformed but if not done properly we will all be paying the costs of George Osbournes mistake.

martinsurrey

ProudDad wrote: »

Yes this is a huge opportunity for welfare in this country to be reformed but if not done properly we will all be paying the costs of George Osbournes mistake.

So how would you do it.

ProudDad

martinsurrey wrote: »

So how would you do it.

Bring forward changes to minimum wage and personal allowance for a start. Introduce the changes over a period of three years staring from next April during which time a review of the full impact of the changes will be carried out. The results of this report would be announced no later than two years into the three year period to allow time for any additional measures to be implemented.

Also I would ensure that minimum wage and personal allowance are reviewed during this time to ensure that the new measures implemented are enough and act during the three years if necessary.

I would also look towards a Nordic system of childcare where the state provides a lot more childcare than we currently do as this is a potential barrier towards getting more people into work. As most will agree that decent childcare in this country can cost more than a mortgage and that simply shouldn't be the case.

It wouldn't be perfect but I think it would give the desired results over a longer period. When it comes to welfare it shouldn't simply be about saving money but ensuring that any changes don't have a negative effect on society.

martinsurrey

ProudDad wrote: »

Bring forward changes to minimum wage and personal allowance for a start. Introduce the changes over a period of three years staring from next April during which time a review of the full impact of the changes will be carried out. The results of this report would be announced no later than two years into the three year period to allow time for any additional measures to be implemented.

Also I would ensure that minimum wage and personal allowance are reviewed during this time to ensure that the new measures implemented are enough and act during the three years if necessary.

It wouldn't be perfect but I think it would give the desired results over a longer period. When it comes to welfare it shouldn't simply be about saving money but ensuring that any changes don't have a negative effect on society.

you've just decreased income tax receipts and corp tax receipts while not reducing the benefits bill, how are you funding this?

martinsurrey

ProudDad wrote: »

I would also look towards a Nordic system of childcare where the state provides a lot more childcare than we currently do as this is a potential barrier towards getting more people into work. As most will agree that decent childcare in this country can cost more than a mortgage and that simply shouldn't be the case.

and your edit is to spend even more money, where is it all coming from?

ProudDad

martinsurrey wrote: »

you've just decreased income tax receipts and corp tax receipts while not reducing the benefits bill, how are you funding this?

Well tapering rate would be increased over next three years and income threshold would drop each year reducing costs of tax credits to desired levels by 2019/20 tax year. The deficit they are trying to get rid of is by no means our friend but we can take a sensible approach to deficit reduction to ensure it isn't don't at the expense of normal people. So basically run budget deficit for longer than planned with aim of still running a surplus but not during this parliament.

As for corporation tax if we could clamp down on the avoidance in this area that would go a long way to helping plus as we enter more prosperous times tax receipts should increase.

ProudDad

martinsurrey wrote: »

and your edit is to spend even more money, where is it all coming from?

Sorry having really costed this one would be more of a study to see if it could be done in the UK in an affordable manner.

However countries like Sweden achieve this with a lot more generous benefits for parents than we have so surely this would achievable in some form.

martinsurrey

ProudDad wrote: »

Well tapering rate would be increased over next three years and income threshold would drop each year reducing costs of tax credits to desired levels by 2019/20 tax year. The deficit they are trying to get rid of is by no means our friend but we can take a sensible approach to deficit reduction to ensure it isn't don't at the expense of normal people. So basically run budget deficit for longer than planned with aim of still running a surplus but not during this parliament.

As for corporation tax if we could clamp down on the avoidance in this area that would go a long way to helping plus as we enter more prosperous times tax receipts should increase.

Got it.

So its to kick the can down the road.

Times are good now, so rather than fix the problems from the last recession, and get us in financial shape for the next one (which WILL happen), we should kick the can down the road and hope that the downturn doesn't come too soon... I mean its worked well for Greece.

ProudDad

martinsurrey wrote: »

Got it.

So its to kick the can down the road.

Times are good now, so rather than fix the problems from the last recession, and get us in financial shape for the next one (which WILL happen), we should kick the can down the road and hope that the downturn doesn't come too soon... I mean its worked well for Greece.

Bluntly yes, have to admit the sarcasm made me chuckle. On the other hand we are not Greece our economy is bigger, more dynamic and more resilient. If this is times good then I would hate to think what they will be like if they get bad again. The constant talk of austerity makes it feel like we will be in recession forever. What we should do is focus on sensible deficit reduction and not the current measures of get to surplus at all costs.

While we are in times that are good(which I realise we are) we should be focussing on ensuring that our financial house is in order. Encouraging less people to work while reducing tax receipts is not going to do this. So spreading the changes over a longer period will achieve the same end result but with smaller results in the interim.

Other things that could sensibly be cut is the amount of different benefits they are available and making the system simpler rather than introducing new benefits. Also bringing more focus to a security service that could tell you what I have had for breakfast this morning but not when someone has been radicalised and is going to some far off land to fight for some cause they believe to be just. To name but a few changes that could be made anyway.