first written caution at work

badfriend?

I'm in a bit of a situation with work.

I'm in the process of moving back to my home town and looking for work there due to various reasons I moved to London to work and became very ill once there.

Now due to this illness (which is ongoing but gradually getting better now I'm on some stronger tablets ) I am a bit screwed for applying for jobs.

My absence is very high over 30 days in 12 months but all of these are due to this condition bar one absence which was something else.

Work hasn't picked up on it until now ( as there's been a reshuffle in management) but the first meeting I had about it I am being issued a first written caution.

I feel that this is unfair as work have no worked with me to help me. It's only due to the fact that I saw a locum doctor that my tablets actually got changed ( my local doctors surgery are shocking)

They've told me I can appeal and when I spoke to an independent advisor ( stupidly I hadn't joined the union- it's a secondary school I work in) they said that due to the fact my illness has been due to this condition and it's affected my day to day life it could be seen as a disabilty in line with the 2010 equality act.

I'm worried if I went down this route (which I would for the support if I hadn't started to feel better) that it would make applying for jobs even more difficult but this first written caution is something I shall have to declare on applications.

Has anyone been in a similar position please help me find a solution as I've no idea what to do or to say to my employer.

I think they know I'm a genuine person and a hard worker and care about the school so much so that's not an issue it purely is this but the idea of a caution for something which is out of my control makes me feel almost like a criminal and like I've done something incredibly bad.

elsien

You say work haven't done anything to help you, but then you go on to say they've only just picked up on it. Did you ask for any support at any point?

People with disabilities can still get dismissed on capability grounds if the correct procedures are followed, it's not a magic get out of jail free card.

If you think you need further support you really need to talk to your employer. Do they have an occupational health department. Or is your question more about what to say to a prospective employer.

sangie595

Even if you qualify under the Equality Act, that doesn't mean that you will get some or all of your absence disregarded - that MAY be a reasonable adjustment, but that is by no means certain.

Sickness absence procedures are now commonplace, and based on very simple terms - if you exceed XX numbers of days off sick, then you get a warning and a target to meet for the future, or some variation on that. It doesn't matter that the sickness is genuine, and it doesn't matter whether you work hard or not. So the chances of overturning this warning are almost non-existent - you can't change the fact that you have been off sick. If you have been given a target, you MIGHT be able to appeal for some leeway on your target IF you are covered by the Equality Act.

On the other hand, I would not be totally worried about applying for other jobs. Yes, they are likely to ask if you have had sick days - so that record is a fact, whatever happens about the warning. But as far as the warning goes, there is absolutely nothing to stop you explaining what it was for, why you are confident that the problem with your health is resolved and you won't be off sick that much again, and your record of not having time off sick (hopefully) since the warning will prove that.

Everyone gets sick sometimes. And employers want people who will be in work not off sick. But they are unlikely to hold a bad period against you if you explain why it was a blip in an otherwise good attendance record.

ohreally

badfriend? wrote: »

this first written caution is something I shall have to declare on applications

Why do you think this?

jobbingmusician

Also, take heart in that a first written caution should expire after a relatively short period. Do you know when it expires?

sangie595

ohreally wrote: »

Why do you think this?

Probably because the OP is in education, and any disciplinary action would have to be declared as a result.

badfriend?

Thank you all for replying.

Yes I was told that I would have to disclose it. I've already told my work that I'm looking for other work as I need to move out of London for various reasons. Also yes I work in education.

Good question I need to find out how long this will be on there for? It wouldn't concern me so much as I know I'm starting to feel better so my absence will drop off eventually as I do go in when it's something little and manageable.

Prior to these problems I had a great sick record.

Yes that's what I'm concerned about as the advise was to go down the equality route but I feel that's untruthful due to how I'm feeling now. If these tablets hadn't been working and I'd been as ill as I've previously been I would have said yes to get as much support as possible as it's taken years for the doctors to listen to me despite being hospitalised with it.

That does make me feel better that I'll be able to explain but I worried that as I have to put it on an application that it would put off prospective employers.

I'm not annoyed at the school just a bit disapointed. I know it's not personal but I thought they might have given a verbal warning first then a written warning. Not just go in straight with the written caution which they know will have to be put on any applications that I apply for.

If I were to apply for jobs outside of Education does anyone know if I would still have to disclose this prior to interview?

That's the bit that worries me prior to interview as I think if I was lucky enough to be selected for an interview then I could honestly explain the sitatuion and how much better I've been feeling and my absence hasn't been an issue since then.

In an informal chat with my headteacher I did tell her that I wouldn't mind being referred to Occupational Health if it meant I would get help but she said I would have to disclose that on any future applications. I also previously did say this to my line manager who has sickness problems of her own so it quite often off. Which is possibly why I've been overlooked until now.

I'm not so worried now about receiving help but more so about my future. Now I'm feeling better it seems clearer and I can take my head out of the sand it's been in but due to this stupid illness it could cost me my future. grrrrrrrrrrrr!

sangie595

If an application form asks about sickness absence, you don't fill it in. It is unlawful for an employer to ask about sickness until they have made a conditional offer - they can ask then. Some employers haven't caught up with the law - although it's been law for years! But you simply leave it blank. That applies in or out of education - the law is the law. Having said that, I know that in education a lot of places do ask about disciplinary warnings. My view would be that a warning for sickness absence is not a disciplinary warning - it is a warning about sickness absence which is not misconduct. So I would leave it blank on any form, but if offered a job I would explain sickness absence at that time immediately, without being asked - because even if the reference doesn't specifically ask about it, there is usually a question about sickness. Being able to explain that it was a temporary blip would satisfy most employers - and if it doesn't, you may want to think about what they are like to work for.

I am interested in why you were told that a referral to OH would have to be mentioned in a reference though. That is entirely irregular, and skirts close to the edge, and probably crosses the line, of breach of confidential information. What passes between you, your employer and OH should stay in that place - it should not be shared unless it would involve a safeguarding or safety concern, and I am struggling to think what illness you could have where that would apply.

As for choosing whether it is a disability or not, that doesn't work! It's not the case that it is a disability when the tablets don't work; and not is they do. The test is whether the condition has a serious impact on your day to day life with or without medication. So, for example, if you have diabetes, you may be able to control it perfectly with medication, but you still have a disability - without that medication the condition would have a serious impact on your ability to manage on a daily basis, and would do so if the medication stopped working. Now arthritis - that might be and it might not be. It is certainly true that arthritis could impair your mobility or your ability to handle certain things, even with medication. But you can have arthritis and it doesn't really have much impact on your abilities - so it isn't a disability. And you could be off work several times, or have a couple of months off, with a medical condition that makes you ill - but you don't have a disability - an example of this would be, perhaps, migraines. It is impossible to determine where the line is drawn because it is based on individual circumstances, but very few illnesses are automatically a disability (heart disease and cancer are examples of this), and in the end only an employment tribunal can decide whether they think you are disabled or not - your employer, you and/or your doctor don't decide this.

stevemLS

sangie595 wrote: »

If an application form asks about sickness absence, you don't fill it in. It is unlawful for an employer to ask about sickness until they have made a conditional offer - they can ask then. Some employers haven't caught up with the law - although it's been law for years! But you simply leave it blank. That applies in or out of education - the law is the law. Having said that, I know that in education a lot of places do ask about disciplinary warnings. My view would be that a warning for sickness absence is not a disciplinary warning - it is a warning about sickness absence which is not misconduct. So I would leave it blank on any form, but if offered a job I would explain sickness absence at that time immediately, without being asked - because even if the reference doesn't specifically ask about it, there is usually a question about sickness. Being able to explain that it was a temporary blip would satisfy most employers - and if it doesn't, you may want to think about what they are like to work for.
/QUOTE]

To be entirely accurate, I don't think it is actually unlawful to ask about sickness absence at the application stage - it may well be unwise as it suggests that it is a factor in the selection process which might indicate discrimination on the basis of disability.

But, not all sickness absence is caused by a disability and an employer would be perfectly justified in discriminating against someone who took every other Monday off because they were hung over.

Happy to be directed at a statute that proves me wrong.

ohreally

Section 60 of the Equality Act 2010 introduced a ban on pre-employment questions to job applicants about their health, including whether they have a disability and their previous sickness absence record, before they are offered a role.

There are exceptions. In particular:

• asking about disability before an interview to organise reasonable adjustments at the interview is allowed;

• asking whether an applicant can carry out a function intrinsic to the role once reasonable adjustments have been made is allowed; and

• anonymised questions for diversity monitoring are allowed, although the results should not be available to the person doing the selecting.

In general, this means that an employer must not ask about a job applicant’s health before offering employment, on either a conditional or an unconditional basis. The ban extends to third parties such as assessment centres, recruitment agencies and referees. Once a job offer has been made, it is no longer unlawful to ask questions about health, but an employer who asks health-related questions after making an offer, for example, through a health questionnaire, and then withdraws that offer when the answers reveal a disability risks a claim for disability discrimination.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is responsible for enforcing section 60.

..........

sangie595

stevemLS wrote: »

To be entirely accurate, I don't think it is actually unlawful to ask about sickness absence at the application stage - it may well be unwise as it suggests that it is a factor in the selection process which might indicate discrimination on the basis of disability.

But, not all sickness absence is caused by a disability and an employer would be perfectly justified in discriminating against someone who took every other Monday off because they were hung over.

Happy to be directed at a statute that proves me wrong.

I presume you are happy that the statute proving you wrong has been provided?

And I have made it perfectly clear that not all sickness is considered disability related - and that even if it is disability related that is not a get out of jail free card - sickness absence procedures still apply on exactly the same basis as everyone else, but it MAY be appropriate for an employer to consider reasonable adjustments to targets if they are capable of doing so.

I think an employer discriminating against someone who took every other Monday off would need to be quite careful that the cause was actually a hangover. Patterns of sickness absence should be examined, but just because there is a pattern does not mean that this is caused by a hangover. It could equally be the result of a medical procedure that causes illness that the employee has not divulged. It could be the result of specific medications that are taken on a less frequent basis than daily - some medications are taken on a weekly basis, for example.