Parking Eye PCN with car rental

DavePaddi

Hi there,
I am new to this forum, I hope I am doing the right thing by creating a new thread. I am looking for some help to fight an unfair PCN I was issued with with a hired car
I rented a car a few weeks ago in Southampton for the weekend. I went to pick up family members at the Ocean Terminal. I was told by the man at the front gate to go straight to the pick-up point, and to park in the short stay car park if they were not there. I couldn't see them, so I entered the car park but I couldn't find a place to parl. I turned round and round for 15 minutes and decided to go back to the pick up point where my family was now waiting for me.
A few days ago I got a letter from Parking Eye, asking me for 100GBP for those 16 minutes spent on their car park. I was not even aware it was a pay car park (nothing was said to me at the front gate), but I didn't even park as it was full (I might have seen appropriate signage if I had actually parked).
I intend to contest this PCN. I have read the Newbies section on this forum but I am not sure what to do as my car was a rental car. The car rental company (Green Motion) has already named me as the driver, and it seems to me that the argument is based on admitting being the RK but never saying who was driving. I can't do that as I am not the RK and the RK has already named me as the driver. What should I say?
Also, I guess the first step is to appeal to Parking Eye. Do you think I should say what actually happened? I have read that they don't care about the reason why I didn't pay, they only hear legal stuff.
So I'm asking what should I say to Parking Eye. The actual reason why or the legal bit? And if I say the legal bit, what should I say as the template doesn't apply to rental cars?

On another hand, I got charged 84GBP by Green Motion (the car rental company) for their admin fee. Their T&Cs says: "It is the responsibility of each hirer to cover the cost of any parking fines and traffic violations including but not limited to unpaid tolls and Congestion Charges. When fines or traffic violations occur and a Green Motion location is involved in administering the violation a non waiverable administration fee of 84GBP will be charged." Do you think their T&Cs cover that "fake" PCN. Should I claim that money back (e.g. with my bank or card issuer)? Or should I wait for the outcome of my appeal first?

Thanks to everyone for your help!
David

ManxRed

No, their Ts & Cs most definitely DON'T cover this PCN, which is a speculative invoice based on a civil contract dispute, and does not come under any traffic legislation, and is most definitely NOT a fine (a private company cannot 'fine' anyone).

They need to contact the BVRLA (if they are a member) and have this confirmed to them.

bod1467

Charge back the admin fee on your card as an unauthorised transaction. As per above, the T&Cs most certainly do not cover civil invoices (which is what this PCN is).

Apart from anything else .... £84! :eek:
They're extracting the urine if they're saying it costs them that much to handle a penalty charge. (i.e. provide the hirer's name and address - which is simply a look-up on their computer and print off a standard template letter).

Edna_Basher

I agree with ManxRed and bod1467 - the term "parking fines and traffic violations" cannot reasonably extend to cover contractual charges arising from parking on private land. The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations are in your favour on this.

With regard to ParkingEye's PCN, the lease company will have named you as the "hirer" not the driver.

Take a look at the PCN that ParkingEye sent you; it will have included the statement that "we have been made aware by the vehicle-hire / lease company that you were the hirer / lessee of the above vehicle at the time of the parking event and they have provided your details, together with a copy of your signed hire agreement and statement of liability".

ParkingEye's Notices to Hirer don't comply with POFA 2012 (for example, contrary to POFA 2012's requirements, they never include a copy of the signed hire agreement and statement of liability); this will be one of your strongest appeal points - as long as you don't tell ParkingEye who the driver was.

Fruitcake

As above, the 84 quid is an unauthorized charge. If you paid by credit or debit card, immediately contact your card provider and tell them it was unauthorised and put it into dispute.


You were the keeper (but not the registered keeper) during the hire period but may or may not have been the driver. So, you appeal to parking lie as keeper and do not tell them under any circumstances who the driver was.

DavePaddi

Thanks for all your posts.
I will draft an appeal letter to Parking Eye, highlighting the fact that their notice doesn't comply with POFA 2012 as suggested by Edna.
I will post it back here before I send it for you guys to have a look at it if you don't mind.
Thanks for your help,
David

Edna_Basher

Thanks DavePaddi

We'll look forward to having a look at your draft appeal.

Out if interest, was the short stay car park in question at Southampton Town Quay (i.e. next to the ferry terminals)?

If so, POFA 2012 doesn't even apply because the land is subject to Port Byelaws. This would mean that even if ParkingEye did send a compliant Notice to Hirer, they would have no right to claim keeper / hirer liability anyway.

DavePaddi

Hi all,

That's what I am planning to send to Parking Eye. I only added/changed a few words here and there but it is basically a copy-paste of the template found in the newbies section.

Date
Dear Sirs
Re: PCN No. ....................
I challenge this 'PCN' as hirer of the car, on these main grounds:
a). The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.
b). The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.
c). There is no evidence that you have any interest in the land. I will complain to the landowner about your aggressive ticketing.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 (a copy of the signed hire agreement and statement of liability were not included) so there can be no hirer liability.
e). I believe that the signs were not seen/are ambiguous and the predominant purpose is to deter so there is no contract to pay this charge, which is a penalty.
Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I will only appeal further if you offer POPLA, the only independent ADR with a scrutiny panel and trained Assessors. The 'IAS' offered by IPC firms will not be used, for well-documented reasons.
''Drop hands'' offer
The charge is baseless but I realise that you may have nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your junk mail dressed up to mimic a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.
Breach of CCRs
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered nor expressly agreed. This 'contract' is cancelled and any obligations now end.
I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully,


Do you think that should do?

Edna, I don't think the car park was at Southampton Town Quay, it was at Southampton Ocean Terminal (off Cunard Road, right in front of the Ocean Terminal itself). That being said, I wonder if it is subject to Port Bylaws as well, as it is right in front of one of the ferry terminals. If so, is it something I should mention in my appeal?

Thanks!
David

DavePaddi

Hi everybody,

I have found more bits on the rental agreement relating to extra costs:

Traffic violations/PCN’s are subject to administrative fees of £84 including VAT.
I shall be liable as owner of the above vehicle in respect of any of the offenses and any excess charge or Penalty Charge referred to in any such legislation or orders in accordance with the conditions attached.
In case of payment by credit/debit card, I authorise the Lessor to obtain payment of the Total Charge, calculated in accordance with the tariff rates agreed in this document, and any other sums due or which become due to the lessor, by debiting the card no. given, or the account referred to above.
It is the responsibility of each hirer to cover the cost of any parking fines and traffic violations including the London Congestion Charge. When fines or traffic violations occur and a Green Motion location is involved in administering the charge then an administration fee will be charged to the customer. All fines, court costs and intended prosecutions for parking, traffic or other offences (including any costs which arise if the vehicle is clamped) will be charged to the customer. You must pay the appropriate authority any fines and costs if and when the authority demands this payment. All fines and intended prosecutions incurred will attract reasonable administration charges which arise when we deal with these matters.
You are liable as owner for any charges arising from an offence under Part111 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act1988, the Road Traffic act 1991, Road Traffic regulation Act 1984 as amended, replaced or extended by any subsequent legislation applicable to Scotland, Northern Ireland or any British Isle where the vehicle is being used or for any charges demanded by a 3rd party as a result of the vehicle being parked or left upon land which is not a public road.
Speeding Fines, Parking Fines, Bus Lanes - If you incur any speeding fines, parking fines or other road traffic offences that are notified to us then an administration fee of £84.00 will be charged plus any of costs we incur.

Also, on their email to explain the admin fee, Green Motion refers to it as a "parking fine".

Does it change anything? Do you reckon I still challenge the transaction with my bank?
And any feedback on the appeal letter I want to send to Parking Eye?

Thanks guys.
Daviid

Edna_Basher

I have a few suggestions on your draft appeal letter.

Suggested Introductory Paragraph

I refer to your Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) Ref. 123456/654321 issued to me as a Notice to Hirer in respect of an alleged breach of Parking Terms and Conditions at Southampton Ocean Terminal car park on [Date]. I confirm that as the vehicle’s hirer at the time of this alleged incident, I am the “keeper” for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA 2012”). I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN for the reasons detailed below.

Interest in the Land

I’d be tempted to drop the threat to complain to the landowner about their aggressive ticketing. Suggested alternative wording:

ParkingEye is not the landowner and I contend that it does not have the standing to offer contracts to drivers nor to bring a claim in its own right.

Non-Compliance with POFA 2012

Keep them guessing as to why they’ve not complied with POFA 2012 – you can save the extra detail for POPLA. I suggest wording as follows:

Your Notice to Hirer failed to comply with strict requirements of POFA 2012 and you have therefore forfeited your right to claim keeper liability; I suggest that your carefully review the terms of Paragraphs 13 and 14 to understand why.

Not Relevant Land

I’ve had a look at the ABP Byelaws Map; this shows that the Ocean Terminal site (including Cunard Road) does lie within the Port’s boundaries meaning that you can throw in the “not relevant land” argument in as an extra appeal point - suggested wording:

Notwithstanding the Notice to Hirer’s failure to comply with POFA 2012, the land upon which the alleged incident took place is subject to ABP Byelaws and is not relevant land under POFA 2012.

Closing Paragraph

I would cut the final few paragraphs from “Formal challenge There will be no admissions as to who was driving” to “This 'contract' is cancelled and any obligations now end”. I’d keep the ending simple:

This is my full challenge to the PCN. I now require that you notify me in writing within the strict timescales set out under the British Parking Association Limited Code of Practice either that a) you accept that I am not liable for this charge and that the PCN has been cancelled, or b) you have rejected my challenge, in which case you shall at the same time provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

Fruitcake

DavePaddi wrote: »

Hi everybody,

I have found more bits on the rental agreement relating to extra costs:

Traffic violations/PCN’s are subject to administrative fees of £84 including VAT.
I shall be liable as owner of the above vehicle in respect of any of the offenses and any excess charge or Penalty Charge referred to in any such legislation or orders in accordance with the conditions attached.
In case of payment by credit/debit card, I authorise the Lessor to obtain payment of the Total Charge, calculated in accordance with the tariff rates agreed in this document, and any other sums due or which become due to the lessor, by debiting the card no. given, or the account referred to above.
It is the responsibility of each hirer to cover the cost of any parking fines and traffic violations including the London Congestion Charge. When fines or traffic violations occur and a Green Motion location is involved in administering the charge then an administration fee will be charged to the customer. All fines, court costs and intended prosecutions for parking, traffic or other offences (including any costs which arise if the vehicle is clamped) will be charged to the customer. You must pay the appropriate authority any fines and costs if and when the authority demands this payment. All fines and intended prosecutions incurred will attract reasonable administration charges which arise when we deal with these matters.
You are liable as owner for any charges arising from an offence under Part111 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act1988, the Road Traffic act 1991, Road Traffic regulation Act 1984 as amended, replaced or extended by any subsequent legislation applicable to Scotland, Northern Ireland or any British Isle where the vehicle is being used or for any charges demanded by a 3rd party as a result of the vehicle being parked or left upon land which is not a public road.
Speeding Fines, Parking Fines, Bus Lanes - If you incur any speeding fines, parking fines or other road traffic offences that are notified to us then an administration fee of £84.00 will be charged plus any of costs we incur.

Also, on their email to explain the admin fee, Green Motion refers to it as a "parking fine".

Does it change anything? Do you reckon I still challenge the transaction with my bank?
And any feedback on the appeal letter I want to send to Parking Eye?

Thanks guys.
Daviid

This changes nothing. The mention of fines actually strengthens your case because this was not a fine. The PCN that the hire company received will have been a Parking Charge Notice, and will not have had the word fine on it, anywhere. The PCN you have will be exactly the same.


The hire company have no business taking money from you for this. Green Motion are members of a trade association called BVRLA. This means they have to abide by the BVRLA code of practice which clearly tells them that when they receive a PCN from a private parking company, they must provide the PPC with the hirer's details and a copy of the rental agreement. They must NOT pay the PCN.


I believe a reminder was sent out to all BVRLA members by it's chairman about this as they were getting complaints from too many hirers who had got stung for this.


In addition, the PPC must send a copy of the rental agreement to the hirer with the PCN. If they haven't, this forms another appeal point.


The BVRLA info can be found here.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/BPA%20BVRLA%20MoU.pdf?dl=0


So, put the charge in dispute with your card provider, complain to the BVRLA, complain to the BPA, and THEN tell Green Motion what you have done, demanding they refund your money pronto.