MSE News: 'Family tax': Dad's outrage as Ryanair tries to seat 3yo away from family

NFH

tain wrote: »

I've said about 100 times. The Health and Safety at Work Act - the Act that puts the duty of care on the airlines.

Section 3(1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 states:

"It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety."

I agree with tain that Ryanair's seating of children away from their parents breaches this legislation in that it unreasonably exposes children to risks to their health and safety. Others have quoted many examples above of how a child's health or safety could be compromised by this. What is even more worrying is that Ryanair appears to do this deliberately in order to induce payments of surcharges.

tain

NFH wrote: »

Section 3(1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 states:

"It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety."

I agree with tain that Ryanair's seating of children away from their parents breaches this legislation in that it unreasonably exposes children to risks to their health and safety. Others have quoted many examples above of how a child's health or safety could be compromised by this. What is even more worrying is that Ryanair appears to do this deliberately in order to induce payments of surcharges.

Winner. Cheers!

tain

As I've said before though - I'm sure Ryanair et al will vehemently argue that there is no danger to health and safety, despite all logic saying otherwise.

Sadly, this will only likely be put to the test by something serious happening to a child.

Doc_N

tain wrote: »

As I've said before though - I'm sure Ryanair et al will vehemently argue that there is no danger to health and safety, despite all logic saying otherwise.

Sadly, this will only likely be put to the test by something serious happening to a child.

Agreed. And at that point, Ryanair will be the subject of legal action. Certainly civil, and quite possibly criminal too. They're almost certain to lose the civil action, but a successful prosecution will be more difficult.

Ryanair will have analysed this scenario carefully with their legal advisors - and presumably reached the conclusion that it's a risk worth taking. Financially, that may be so. Reputationally, I'm not so sure - though Ryanair may not rate the value of their reputation that highly!

zagfles

tain wrote: »

As I've said before though - I'm sure Ryanair et al will vehemently argue that there is no danger to health and safety, despite all logic saying otherwise.

Sadly, this will only likely be put to the test by something serious happening to a child.

See http://www.ryanair.com/en/questions/will-families-be-split-up-if-they-do-not-wish-to-pay-for-allocated-seating/

It looks like they just want to make it a hassle so people will simply pay because they CBA with the hassle.

Also interesting that they have (I think) the highest min age for travelling alone of all airlines - they won't take children under 16 unaccompanied! Most airlines will take 12 year olds unaccompanied.

NFH

Doc_N wrote: »

Reputationally, I'm not so sure - though Ryanair may not rate the value of their reputation that highly!

Ryanair seems to subscribe to the adage of "there's no such thing as bad publicity". I believe that it even created a rumour that it would start charging for the lavatories on board, just to generate publicity. Whenever Ryanair gets into the media about something negative, all we see is O'Leary on television going on about how it's the "low fares airline" and glossing over the topic in the news.

Steve_at_Wallasey

Hi all. totally agree with the consensus here, this is a non-story from beginning to end. All they had to do was pay the extra and with such young children I am astonished they didn't, it is a dereliction of parental duty.
It is ironic that 2 people who work in the law claim that ignorance of the rules is a defence - if anybody knows that to not be true,it should be them. When you have such young children you are not allowed to "assume" anything and if you willnot take proper steps, best to not be flying until the children are older.

NFH

Steve_at_Wallasey wrote: »

Hi all. totally agree with the consensus here, this is a non-story from beginning to end. All they had to do was pay the extra and with such young children I am astonished they didn't, it is a dereliction of parental duty.

What consensus? Why should they have to pay extra in order to avoid being deliberately scattered around the aircraft? Do you think that disabled people should have to "pay the extra" as you put it? Why should the "extra" have to be paid in respect of a child who needs to be accompanied but not in respect of a disabled person?

Steve_at_Wallasey wrote: »

It is ironic that 2 people who work in the law claim that ignorance of the rules is a defence

You don't seem to have read the story or this thread properly. The rules are being flouted by Ryanair, not by the passengers. The Civil Aviation Authority guidelines state:

The seating of children close by their parents or guardians should be the aim of airline seat allocation procedures for family groups and large parties of children.

Young children and infants who are accompanied by adults, should ideally be seated in the same seat row as the adult. Children and accompanying adults should not be separated by more than one aisle. Where this is not possible, children should be separated by no more than one seat row from accompanying adults. This is because the speed of an emergency evacuation may be affected by adults trying to reach their children.

Whenever a number of infants and children are travelling together the airline should make every effort to ensure that they can be readily supervised by the responsible accompanying adults.

The onus is on the airline, and not the passengers, to comply with these guidelines. The airline cannot demand a surcharge in order to comply with these guidelines; they are mandatory.

peachyprice

tain wrote: »

Are the air crew trained in how to respond should the child choke? Or have an allergic reaction to some of the food? Do they know how to control the child should they start misbehaving? What if they refused to obey the safety notices and took their seatbelt off and started running around? Are the flight crew trained or even allowed to restrain the child? What if they injured the child in trying to restrain them? What if the child injured someone else? The parent can't be held responsible as they're the other side of the plane - so are the cabin crew to blame?

There things can only happen to children? Really? Or should all adults also be accompanied at all times in case they choke, have an allergic reaction or an episode that makes them behave irrationally?

Air crew are trained to deal with these types of incidents, it doesn't make a difference whether it's a child or adult choking/having a medical emergency/misbehaving, the procedure is the same. Or do you think if they see an adult choking/fitting/fighting/getting out of their seat at inappropriate times they just shrug their shoulders and walk away?

peachyprice

NFH wrote: »

You don't seem to have read the story or this thread properly. The rules are being flouted by Ryanair, not by the passengers. The

Civil Aviation Authority guidelines state:

The seating of children close by their parents or guardians should be the aim of airline seat allocation procedures for family groups and large parties of children.

Young children and infants who are accompanied by adults, should ideally be seated in the same seat row as the adult. Children and accompanying adults should not be separated by more than one aisle. Where this is not possible, children should be separated by no more than one seat row from accompanying adults. This is because the speed of an emergency evacuation may be affected by adults trying to reach their children.

Whenever a number of infants and children are travelling together the airline should make every effort to ensure that they can be readily supervised by the responsible accompanying adults.
.

It's you who doesn't seem to have read the CAA guidelines.

There is no must or will.