Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Martyn1981

EricMears said:

Martyn1981 said:

I don't know if this will shock anyone, or is simply known, but it looks like H2 for domestic heating isn't really economically viable, despite being possible. I'd suggest that's the same situation as H2 for cars, possible, but not economically viable v's the alternatives.

Green H2 does have, I believe, vast potential in many areas, so I'm not knocking it, but H2 options in some areas do seem to be getting too much promotion, suggesting FF interests trying to slow down the transition to, dare I say, 'the winning solutions' (BEV's and heatpumps). Or perhaps it's just that we are in a messy transition, and clarity is yet to be reached.

Hydrogen could ‘nearly double’ cost of heating a home compared with gas

Between now and 2050, when the UK is legally bound to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions, using hydrogen would add about 70% to home energy bills compared with using gas,

But is their "now"  late September or was it earlier in the year ?  70% more than (say) March prices would probably be cheaper than actual September prices for NG.

Good question. I don't know.

My thinking on price differences in the medium term, say 5yrs - which is almost certainly far sooner than we could reach a stage of significant excess RE, for H2, and modernisation of the gas supply and boilers - is that Europe will have reduced its FF gas consumption by roughly 30%*, thus negating the impact of lost Russian supplies, which are pushing prices up.

Or, things will have reached an amicable peace (Ukraine v's Russia), allowing for the dropping/reduction of sanctions, and Russian gas being supplied and demanded in Western Europe again.

Or, of maybe both, meaning we will have too much FF gas later this decade, pushing prices lower.

*Not sure if that reduction is reasonable or crazy, but I'd have thought price pressures would allow for a significant push towards RE displacing more gas generation, and spending on insulation and heatpumps helping to reduce space heating needs. Obviously, anything is possible, but does -30% seem reasonable in 5yrs if European efforts are accelerated? Of course, any reduction will help to reduce the average market price a bit.

EricMears

Martyn1981 said:

 Obviously, anything is possible, but does -30% seem reasonable in 5yrs if European efforts are accelerated? Of course, any reduction will help to reduce the average market price a bit.

There can be some spectacular price drops as new technology is embraced.  e.g.  I thought £12,500 quite reasonable for our 4kWp system in 2011 but well within 5 years prices of £6k were being quoted.

Or going a little further back,  colour TVs were only for the very well off in 1966 but within 5 years almost anyone could afford one.

silverwhistle

EricMears said:

There can be some spectacular price drops as new technology is embraced.  e.g.  I thought £12,500 quite reasonable for our 4kWp system in 2011 but well within 5 years prices of £6k were being quoted.

Or going a little further back,  colour TVs were only for the very well off in 1966 but within 5 years almost anyone could afford one.

Within two years actually! :-)  As for colour TVs I still had to do Saturday night babysitting to watch in 1972 as we didn't have one at home.

I'm waiting just a bit longer on domestic batteries.

Martyn1981

Still early days, but compressed CO2 energy storage is progressing, with a possible deployment beyond the current demonstration model being built. This storage sits somewhat between fast batteries, and far longer term ideas like H2 storage, with a design of about 10hrs of storage.

Energy Dome To Partner With Ørsted For Energy Storage

In June, we introduced our readers to Energy Dome, a company that uses carbon dioxide as an energy storage medium. (The irony of using carbon dioxide to help solve the problem of too much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will not be lost on our savvy readers.) The company is currently constructing its first demonstration facility on the island of Sardinia, where its CO2 battery will help smooth the transition to renewable energy when the island switches off its two coal-fired thermal generating stations next year.

I got a press release from Energy Dome this past week telling me that its technology has attracted interest from Ørsted, the Danish company that is a global leader in wind turbine technology. The two companies have signed a memorandum of understand that will allow them to explore the feasibility of deploying of a 20 MW/200 MWh Energy Dome facility at one or more Ørsted sites.

Coastalwatch

silverwhistle said:

EricMears said:

There can be some spectacular price drops as new technology is embraced.  e.g.  I thought £12,500 quite reasonable for our 4kWp system in 2011 but well within 5 years prices of £6k were being quoted.

Or going a little further back,  colour TVs were only for the very well off in 1966 but within 5 years almost anyone could afford one.

Within two years actually! :-)  As for colour TVs I still had to do Saturday night babysitting to watch in 1972 as we didn't have one at home.

I'm waiting just a bit longer on domestic batteries.

Sorry to have to say that with the current fall in the pound and battery price increases prior to this I reckon you are going to need to be a little chuffing patient!

Our Inverter has been out for three weeks now with no indication of a likely repair/replacement date. Currently running on batteries only, charged on Octopus Go faster overnight tariff to 95%, down to 22% now and that's without any heating requirement. 

Thankfully there's a 9.5kWh Givenergy unit waiting to be hooked up just as soon as cables arrive!

Exiled_Tyke

So green hydrogen isn't a silver bullet when it comes to domestic heating.  In fact according to this article it works out six times more expensive than using a heat pump. Ouch!!! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63050910

michaels

Exiled_Tyke said:

So green hydrogen isn't a silver bullet when it comes to domestic heating.  In fact according to this article it works out six times more expensive than using a heat pump. Ouch!!! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63050910

Surely the reason for using hydrogen is that it is also a storage medium and if the electricity is 'free' spill then even very low efficiencies still make sense?  Or am I missing something?  For example you get more heat putting PV straight into a heat pump than you do from using batteries to store i from when it is generated in the day to the evening when you need heating, however if the time you want the heat is in the evening then it makes sense to time-shift energy to when you need it, even though it is not 100% efficient.to 

(Of course H2 to the home may not be the best way of storing then consuming the spill, it may be better to burn the H2 in power stations and use heat pumps but the analysis is much more complicated than simply you get 6 times as much heat energy from wind electricity straight to heat pump than you do if you go via H2)

[Second aside, if you have H2, do you get more heat by burning it in a boiler or using a fuel cell to convert to electricity and running a heat pump?]

ABrass

michaels said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

So green hydrogen isn't a silver bullet when it comes to domestic heating.  In fact according to this article it works out six times more expensive than using a heat pump. Ouch!!! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63050910

Surely the reason for using hydrogen is that it is also a storage medium and if the electricity is 'free' spill then even very low efficiencies still make sense?  Or am I missing something?

(Of course H2 to the home may not be the best way of storing then consuming the spill, it may be better to burn the H2 in power stations and use heat pumps but the analysis is much more complicated than simply you get 6 times as much heat energy from wind electricity straight to heat pump than you do if you go via H2)

[Second aside, if you have H2, do you get more heat by burning it in a boiler of using a fuel cell to convert to electricity and running a heat pump?]

In theory spillage power would make sense, but apparently the cost of the splitters is high enough that you need high utilisation rates for them to make sense financially.

Fuel cells are more efficient than combustion engines using hydrogen.

michaels

ABrass said:

michaels said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

So green hydrogen isn't a silver bullet when it comes to domestic heating.  In fact according to this article it works out six times more expensive than using a heat pump. Ouch!!! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63050910

Surely the reason for using hydrogen is that it is also a storage medium and if the electricity is 'free' spill then even very low efficiencies still make sense?  Or am I missing something?

(Of course H2 to the home may not be the best way of storing then consuming the spill, it may be better to burn the H2 in power stations and use heat pumps but the analysis is much more complicated than simply you get 6 times as much heat energy from wind electricity straight to heat pump than you do if you go via H2)

[Second aside, if you have H2, do you get more heat by burning it in a boiler of using a fuel cell to convert to electricity and running a heat pump?]

In theory spillage power would make sense, but apparently the cost of the splitters is high enough that you need high utilisation rates for them to make sense financially.

Fuel cells are more efficient than combustion engines using hydrogen.

I found several references to fuel cells beat h2 ice but couldn't find efficiencies for H2 power stations - might they be similar to gas at up to 60-70%?. 

Obviously we already have a gas distribution network, perhaps it would make sense to use it to distribute H2 to domestic fuel cells to power heat pumps?

Exiled_Tyke

How I see it, from the article is that the process is ridiculously inefficient and so wastes a lot of energy which would be better stored/converted by other means.  

 I read another article referenced from the first one about Blue Hydrogen which seemed to imply that a lot of the push for hydrogen was from the FF industry trying to save itself by claiming that using !!!!!! to produce hydrogen is a greener way forward when in fact it's a distraction from far more effective green energy  innovations.