Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Baxter100

This is a forum about saving money, right?

silverwhistle

Cardew said:

Input from many posters on this forum, who have fitted Heat pumps, indicate costs are considerably in excess of £10k.

But it should also be pointed out that this is new technology in the UK, and the early adopters are by and large people with more money and larger houses, and a common theme is that the houses are well insulated. Unfortunately with our housing stock we need to do more insulating before more heat pumps.

You are also a bit out on your current pricing, although blink at the moment and the prices have changed again*.  (*Mine is currently 6p per kwh including VAT).  Heat pumps tie in with increased renewable and using power at cheaper times, so using standard electricity prices is also misleading.

Currently the standing charge on my gas supply is over 40% of my total bill as a very low gas user. My terrace house is fairly well insulated too so if and when my gas boiler goes on the blink I'll have some interesting calculations to do about its replacement. It is by no means as clear cut as you seem to think.

EVandPV

silverwhistle said:

My terrace house is fairly well insulated too so if and when my gas boiler goes on the blink I'll have some interesting calculations to do about its replacement. 

This might help with those calculations .....

UK green energy surcharges set to switch from electric to gas bills

Ministers are set to outline plans to shift green surcharges from household electricity bills on to gas bills in an attempt to nudge consumers towards lower-carbon alternatives. The plans — to be announced next month — are a sign of the government’s desire not to let the crisis over spiralling gas prices derail its longer-term goal of eliminating all net carbon emissions by 2050.

https://www.ft.com/content/54b437ad-4683-434e-89aa-e26772092b31

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

Crikey! So you're saying that for not a lot more than the subsidy for HPC alone (£60bn-£70bn) we could up the heating efficiency of most UK homes (not just the low-income households mentioned in your quote), cheers, that's good news.

But if we were all reliant on electricity for heating (and presumably transport) wouldn't that make the case for a guaranteed baseline supply even stronger?  Sometimes it's not just about what's cheapest.  And, energy prices are sometimes difficult to predict.

shinytop

Cardew said:

Baxter100 said:

In fact, looking at the document which Greenpeace link from:

https://www.raponline.org/knowledge-center/getting-track-net-zero-policy-package-heat-pump-mass-market-uk/

"We assume the average cost of an air source heat pump to be £10,000"

So we can comfortably double that figure from £88 billion to more like £180 billion.

Input from many posters on this forum, who have fitted Heat pumps, indicate costs are considerably in excess of £10k.

In many cases additional or larger radiators need to be fitted to enable Heat Pumps to run at the lower water temp required for efficiency.

Trials of heat pumps indicate a system COP of 3.0 is better than average. Unless the differential between gas and electricity prices is considerably reduced, running costs will be much higher. -  current prices gas around 4p/kWh, electricity around 20p/kWh.

I think ASHP efficiency is better now than the study I think you are referring to.  Mine definitely is (so far).  And  I would expect costs to come down as/when ASHPs become more mainstream.  I agree with the sentiment though; ASHPs are more expensive than ff boilers to buy and run. 

Cardew

silverwhistle said:

Cardew said:

Input from many posters on this forum, who have fitted Heat pumps, indicate costs are considerably in excess of £10k.

But it should also be pointed out that this is new technology in the UK, and the early adopters are by and large people with more money and larger houses, and a common theme is that the houses are well insulated. Unfortunately with our housing stock we need to do more insulating before more heat pumps.

You are also a bit out on your current pricing, although blink at the moment and the prices have changed again*.  (*Mine is currently 6p per kwh including VAT).  Heat pumps tie in with increased renewable and using power at cheaper times, so using standard electricity prices is also misleading.

Currently the standing charge on my gas supply is over 40% of my total bill as a very low gas user. My terrace house is fairly well insulated too so if and when my gas boiler goes on the blink I'll have some interesting calculations to do about its replacement. It is by no means as clear cut as you seem to think.

On purely financial grounds I would consider it pretty clear cut for most people to replace gas with gas, unless the subsidies for heat pumps are massively increased or the penalties on the 80% of UK properties with gas CH are massive; and that surely would be political suicide for any government. See https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/articles/energyefficiencyofhousinginenglandandwales/2020-09-23

I couldn't agree more that the housing stock in UK needs a lot more insulation, but that will add to the cost of conversion to Heat Pumps. As Baxter100 said in an earlier post today:

'Most of the lofts and cavity walls have been done. Solid wall insulation and floor insulation are prohibitively expensive (and require a large amount of upheaval as well as expertise).'

From personal experience having converted a stable I can vouch for that statement.

I do not understand how you believe 'Heat Pumps tie in with increased renewable and using power at cheaper times, so using standard electricity prices is also misleading.'

The whole principle of heat pumps is they have a relatively low power output and require running long periods every day - often 24/7. If the temperature is 'set back' it is usually in the middle of the night when the cheaper tariffs tend to be available. There have been plenty of cases/studies where owners have considered the running their heat pumps on an Economy 7 tariff and I have not heard of one case where it has been found viable. You can of course heat a hot water tank in the middle of the night but that function, with higher water temperatures is where a heat pump is least efficient.

One way or another the bill for UK will be horrendous. Of course we will set a fine example to the rest of the world and USA/China/India etc will be shamed into matching our reductions in emmissions - perhaps!

You may well be correct about being out of date with gas/electricity prices, because it is nearly 48 hours since I last checked!

Martyn1981

Baxter100 said:

This is a forum about saving money, right?

This is the Green & Ethical Board, not the energy board, right?

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Crikey! So you're saying that for not a lot more than the subsidy for HPC alone (£60bn-£70bn) we could up the heating efficiency of most UK homes (not just the low-income households mentioned in your quote), cheers, that's good news.

But if we were all reliant on electricity for heating (and presumably transport) wouldn't that make the case for a guaranteed baseline supply even stronger?  Sometimes it's not just about what's cheapest.  And, energy prices are sometimes difficult to predict.

Yep, not just about what's cheapest, hence why it's so great to see not only RE massively undercut nuclear, but the ever falling costs of storage (intra-day and longer term) too. So why would you want to spend more on nuclear that takes 15yrs to arrive, when we can have RE and storage in far less time, displacing FF emissions. It's a win, win, win.

In fact the economics had already shifted so far towards RE + storage, that way back in 2018 the Government's own advisors, the National Infrastructure Commission (NIC), told them to dial back the plans from 16GW (6 locations) of new nuclear to HPC + 1.

In the US, 2 of the 4 reactors being built have been cancelled mid build because they will never be economic, so that's two being built, and almost 100 coming towards the end of their life.

Latest price comparison is new nuclear to start around 2028*, at £106/MWh with a 35yr subsidy contract,
or off-shore wind to start generating around 2024, at £47/MWh with a 15yr subsidy term. [Note this CfD auction took place after the NIC advice, when off-shore wind had only fallen to £70/MWh.]

*Its sister reactor in Flamanville still hasn't started and construction began in 2007, and the reactor lid has now been found to contain faults. The ones in Finland may start next year, after construction began in 2005, and an additional reactor has now been cancelled, so as you say, it's not just about what's cheapest, sometimes the vastly more expensive option turns out to be a worldwide laughing stock, held up as evidence that the nuclear age is just about done.

Also 'baseload' is just an excuse for nuclear because it can't demand follow, that's why it too needs storage or consumption mechanisms, like the Dinorwig Power Station 'Electric Mountain', or the 'heat electric' campaign with resistive storage heaters, or E7 tariffs ....... funny how all the pro RE mechanisms were first invented for nuclear!

Renewables get massive, and rising support from the public, whilst nuclear support is low and falling as shown in the 37 quarterly opinion reports run by BEIS (previously DECC). And talking about popularity, this report from nearly 5yrs ago, goes to show the 'huge' support nuclear energy has in France, see table 8 (page 27) & table 9 page 31.

So yep, it's not just about what's cheapest, nuclear fails everything else too.

silverwhistle

Cardew said:

I do not understand how you believe 'Heat Pumps tie in with increased renewable and using power at cheaper times, so using standard electricity prices is also misleading.'

I used to be on Agile until not so long ago, and found I could reduce my bills by avoiding the three hour expensive slot between 16.00 and 19.00. The current price of gas and its use to generate electricity means I moved to Go, but with the build out of renewables and links the equilibrium will change in a year or two. With a well insulated property, and we're back to that again, it would be easy enough to avoid that peak for heating as there should be enough heat retained in the fabric of the house.

Incidentally, can anybody, preferably one of the 'it's all too difficult and expensive' brigade, explain how other countries can manage their better performance?

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/uk-worst-heat-pump-record-in-europe/#:~:text=The UK sells and installs,by Greenpeace UK [1].

QrizB

silverwhistle said:

Incidentally, can anybody, preferably one of the 'it's all too difficult and expensive' brigade, explain how other countries can manage their better performance?

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/uk-worst-heat-pump-record-in-europe/#:~:text=The UK sells and installs,by Greenpeace UK [1].

Well that's simple; Poland, Slovakia and Estonia are warm Mediterranean countries with mild winters and so their heat pumps have a much easier time of it than they would do here.

<checks map>

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