Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Martyn1981

michaels wrote: »

But then don't you have to get into the embedded energy and pollution from constructing the power plants / alternative generation capacity in the first place and so on....

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Are you talking about the source of energy when constructing generating capacity?

If so, then that's a false argument. If you build FF generation, then you are stuck in a cycle of high FF emissions to build anything, whereas building RE capacity (even if the energy source is high in FF's) reduces the percentage of FF energy that in the future goes into building anything.

One of the reasons that the CO2 payback time for PV and wind keeps getting shorter, is that the CO2 produced to make them is also reducing as grids become a little greener (and lower CO2) over time due to the deployment of RE - effectively a virtuous circle.

Over this decade the average CO2 of the UK grid has dropped significantly, meaning that all items that consumed leccy when manufactured have a lower CO2 consumption than previously.

Martyn1981

ed110220 wrote: »

Increasing standing charges and decreasing the unit price would be a very bad idea in my opinion as it would discourage self generation and efficiency and encourage wastage.

Yep, it's a disaster in Australia. If unit charges go up, as they have, then that encourages the deployment of PV, and the change in policy to ramp up standing charges to make up for lost revenue, just encouraged more to install PV to save money, and even potentially going off-grid to save on the standing charges.

A$400+pa in standing charges gives you A$4k to A$8k in savings for a battery, and with PV being so incredibly cheap in Aus and effective, it makes for perfect storm in the next decade.

I'm also a fan of higher prices (even before I had PV). I'd like to see the UK adopt NSC (no standing charge) and instead push up the cost of the leccy. Low users would see lower bills, and average users would see no change, so only high users would be penalised.

Then promote efficiency savings and support those in fuel poverty, (possibly with PV?).

Coastalwatch

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Yep, it's a disaster in Australia. If unit charges go up, as they have, then that encourages the deployment of PV, and the change in policy to ramp up standing charges to make up for lost revenue, just encouraged more to install PV to save money, and even potentially going off-grid to save on the standing charges.

A$400+pa in standing charges gives you A$4k to A$8k in savings for a battery, and with PV being so incredibly cheap in Aus and effective, it makes for perfect storm in the next decade.

I'm also a fan of higher prices (even before I had PV). I'd like to see the UK adopt NSC (no standing charge) and instead push up the cost of the leccy. Low users would see lower bills, and average users would see no change, so only high users would be penalised.

Then promote efficiency savings and support those in fuel poverty, (possibly with PV?).

Agree with all the above. I suspect all countries with huge land masses see similar problems so there's a greater financial incentive for them to go off grid if renewables can take it's place. Being a small country we are fortunate here in that distances for the grid to cover are far less so costs not as high. While we are generating a greater percentage of our electricity through renewables the route to going off grid is less clear and with far smaller incentive. We are in the fortunate position of being able to see how other countries progress, or not, with this then benefitting from their experiences before deciding whether to follow. Either way increasing standing charges would only serve to galvanise my resolve to head in that direction.

silverwhistle

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I'm also a fan of higher prices (even before I had PV). I'd like to see the UK adopt NSC (no standing charge) and instead push up the cost of the leccy. Low users would see lower bills, and average users would see no change, so only high users would be penalised..

I'm already on standing charge free tariffs for electricity and gas, and accordingly pay a unit price that would make some people wince. But with PV and a log burner my fuel costs are the least of my worries and I pay them on receipt of bill.


Occasionally I review the situation, but the last time I looked the minimum standing charge I could find for my gas was significantly more than I'm currently paying. Electricity is a closer balance.


What might change this (other than my best friend moving in ) is getting an EV, and that applies on a macro scale too. Summer is fine (I'm exporting a lot at the moment) but I'd need to import more from the grid in winter, which changes the calculations and I'd no longer be a low user.

EricMears

silverwhistle wrote: »

What might change this (other than my best friend moving in ) is getting an EV, and that applies on a macro scale too. Summer is fine (I'm exporting a lot at the moment) but I'd need to import more from the grid in winter, which changes the calculations and I'd no longer be a low user.

It's a lot of hassle but you could consider changing contract regularly and having a no standing charge one for summer months but a more conventional one for winter.

Martyn1981

Coastalwatch wrote: »

Being a small country we are fortunate here in that distances for the grid to cover are far less so costs not as high.

You'd think, but want to hear more scary news from Australia?

A new town of up to 25,000 people is considering building off-grid due to the enormous costs of grid connection. So far so good.

They are (or were 2yrs ago) considering a PV/wind and battery set up, with gas generation back up of 40% of generation. The gas element would change over time depending on the falling costs of RE and storage. So far so good.

Now the scary bit, it's only about 100 miles from Sydney, about 30 miles from the large coastal town of Newcastle, and only about 1/2 mile from the next nearest town. Yet it's a scenario worth them considering, even if they don't go for it.

Google Huntlee, here's one older news item.

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Yep, it's a disaster in Australia. If unit charges go up, as they have, then that encourages the deployment of PV, and the change in policy to ramp up standing charges to make up for lost revenue, just encouraged more to install PV to save money, and even potentially going off-grid to save on the standing charges.

A$400+pa in standing charges gives you A$4k to A$8k in savings for a battery, and with PV being so incredibly cheap in Aus and effective, it makes for perfect storm in the next decade.

I'm also a fan of higher prices (even before I had PV). I'd like to see the UK adopt NSC (no standing charge) and instead push up the cost of the leccy. Low users would see lower bills, and average users would see no change, so only high users would be penalised.

Then promote efficiency savings and support those in fuel poverty, (possibly with PV?).

Hi

Agree on the tariffs, the fact that Ofgem allowed the removal of NSC under the banner of tariff simplification was a huge win for the energy supply sector (who still tend to use this to justify not offering ZeroSC tariffs because they're not 'allowed' to) and effectively was counterproductive to their original operating brief as supplied by DECC (now BEIS) on numerous levels. This really does show how influential the business lobby is within Ofgem and how naive to practices their employees really are.

Standing charges should only cover the costs incurred by the supply industry for providing a network link for the property and nothing else, not even supplier administration or profit, that way they don't gain & don't lose either, they simply pass fixed costs that aren't directly in their control onto the customer ... Ofgem should enforce this approach, we'd soon see all standing charges falling into line as transparency forces the industry to reallocate costs & profit to their correct accounting lines ...

This is essentially very similar to this response to an earlier post ...

zeupater wrote: »

... if the industry gets 'greedy' (eg - maintain profit value over fewer unit sales) then the renewable self generation, direct purchase agreements and storage alternatives become more cost attractive to both consumers & industrial/commercial users which drives more business away ... at some time Ofgem will need to allow customers to have the option to arrange their grid connectivity directly with grid operators ... at this point the supply industry will seriously lose out - they (the industry) obviously know this and will be wary of pushing unit prices too far in order to avoid a complete Catch-22 melt-down of their business models of their own making ...

I also agree with the assessment on artificially raising standing charges being an incentive to move more quickly towards a distributed generation framework including community micro-grids as already being seen elsewhere in the world .... at this point supplier greed results in both National Grid & DNO losing revenue, in which case they would need to react by offering direct services to the consumer, which wouldn't be much of a change as DNO's are already responsible for consumer contact in cases of supply quality issues ...

HTH
Z

EricMears

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Now the scary bit, it's only about 100 miles from Sydney, about 30 miles from the large coastal town of Newcastle, and only about 1/2 mile from the next nearest town.

It might only be 20 miles from Sydney but it's still 2000+ miles from Perth. No doubt the 'membership fee' for joining Australia's grid is based on being connected to all parts of the country rather than just the distance to nearest existing connection point.

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I also agree with the assessment on artificially raising standing charges being an incentive to move more quickly towards a distributed generation framework including community micro-grids as already being seen elsewhere in the world .... at this point supplier greed results in both National Grid & DNO losing revenue, in which case they would need to react by offering direct services to the consumer, which wouldn't be much of a change as DNO's are already responsible for consumer contact in cases of supply quality issues ...

HTH
Z

I've no idea where Australia goes with this. High unit prices will lead to faster rollout of PV. High standing charges will lead to faster off-gridding for marginal cases.

The problem they have is that they spent an absolute fortune on 'gold plating' the grid so as to be able to cope with increased demand, and completed this just in time to watch demand start to fall (as it has in many places) through improved efficiency of refrigeration, lighting, tv's etc.

So the grid has the right to get its investment monies back, but any and all attempts to do so could result in cutting their own throats, with the arrival of cheap PV and soon to be (fingers crossed) cheap storage.

What a mess. No wonder Spain tried so hard to prevent PV, with similarly high generation and only a 2:1 seasonal variation, or even 1.5:1 with a steeper pitch, the leccy suppliers can see hard times ahead if their pesky customers get their mitts on PV.

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

... the grid has the right to get its investment monies back, but any and all attempts to do so could result in cutting their own throats, with the arrival of cheap PV and soon to be (fingers crossed) cheap storage ...

Hi

That's possibly the thought process of any industry ... the right to recover their investments ... however, in almost all sectors that's not the case - it's simply a business decision with associated risk, which could affect the business profitability or it's very existence .

For management to make wrong decisions without having both personal & shareholder accountability is extremely rare and I see no justification for any company to believe that they have a right to exist or even a right to make a profit, whether they continue to do either is really down to the customer base that they provide a service to ... if they're content in continuing to pay for a product or service at the level charged they'll do so, if not there are almost always alternative options available - this is really something that the vast majority of the energy sector is slowly waking up to although the UK's National Grid have been advising of a change to decentralised generation for longer than most generators & suppliers have taken notice ...

Fun times ahead!

HTH
Z