London Undergroud - touch in and out at same station

MrChips

Thanks also.

Yes, that is consistent with my experience. So again, it seems to boil down to the discretion of the customer helpline. Hence my interest in the perceptions of others on here as to whether I should be charged for three journeys or one.

wealdroam

MrChips wrote: »

Thanks also.

Yes, that is consistent with my experience. So again, it seems to boil down to the discretion of the customer helpline. Hence my interest in the perceptions of others on here as to whether I should be charged for three journeys or one.

Not sure how forum user's perceptions are going to be of any help, but I am of the opinion that as you made three journeys you should pay for three journeys.

If you had been travelling by bus, you would've paid for three journeys. Or would you now be asking TfL for a refund of two of those?

Of course if the problem was caused by TfL, then my opinion would be different.

Sometimes mistakes have associated costs.

anamenottaken

MrChips wrote: »

Thanks both - I understand the logic for the system operating as it does, and so I guess my case will rest on some sort of discretion being applied (or not!).

My view is that what I did was little different to taking a very circuitous journey to my ultimate destination. If I was some sort of train spotter, and had an hour to kill, I might journey from Oakwood to central London, but go via a completely different part of the underground just to visit a random station, or travel on a different line for the fun of it. The fare system charges this based on the start and end point only, not the route taken (ok there are a couple of provisos here based on zones travelled through and time taken, but I think the logic stands).

I didn't reach the daily price cap alas, otherwise this would all be academic.

Would such a "train spotter" leave the system by exiting that "random station" or stay within the confines of it? If they were to exit, there would surely be a cost for that journey and then the next journey being on to central London.

yorkie2

anamenottaken wrote: »

Would such a "train spotter" leave the system by exiting that "random station" or stay within the confines of it? If they were to exit, there would surely be a cost for that journey and then the next journey being on to central London.

Someone did that, and exceed the maximum journey time. You would be able to get the Oyster helpline to resolve it, but as in this case, they would make it into a journey to the actual place travelled, and a journey back again.

It's important to touch out at the station where you start retracing your steps, but if you're very quick you can probably get away without doing so if you touch out at a nearby station (so in this case if you did, say, Oakwood to Southgate) but not the same station, or you will end up with 2 x maximum fare charges.

The Oyster helpline will be happy to resolve the journeys, but they are unlikely to want to give you free journeys.

MrChips

Thanks for all the contributions - just off the phone with the helpline who were happy to refund the £10.40 and void the two incomplete journeys this time. Either I was more persuasive, or the staff member was in a better mood than whom I spoke to on my previous call! I have to say that I've had reason to call a few times over the years and (with the one exception yesterday) they have always been very reasonable and eager to be as helpful as possible, also giving the benefit of the doubt where necessary.

I'm obviously biased but I still don't see it as free journeys myself. The system charges a set price for travelling from station A to station B but this is not route dependent. Unless you exit the station you don't get any "utility" from being there and you aren't charged a fare for ending your journey there. I travelled from Oakwood to Oakwood, and then five minutes later Oakwood to Leicester Square. I was correctly charged for the second journey, and the price for the first doesn't exist, merely a default charge to help to prevent abuse.

I have a little boy who is fascinated by the underground. I've sometimes considered getting on a train going on a round trip for a couple of hours, ending up back where we started. After this experience I may have to reconsider our route!

wealdroam

MrChips wrote: »

I'm obviously biased but I still don't see it as free journeys myself. The system charges a set price for travelling from station A to station B but this is not route dependent. Unless you exit the station you don't get any "utility" from being there and you aren't charged a fare for ending your journey there. I travelled from Oakwood to Oakwood, and then five minutes later Oakwood to Leicester Square. I was correctly charged for the second journey, and the price for the first doesn't exist, merely a default charge to help to prevent abuse.

As you say, you are biased.

As I said earlier, If these were buses you had boarded, I would suggest that having touched in three times you would expect to be charged three times. Furthermore I would guess that you would not even consider trying to claim any of those fares back.

Extrapolate that a little bit to... if you had to touch in on boarding the three trains, would your claim for a refund be equally as valid?

You have been treated to some generous goodwill here.

totallybored

It's no help to you now but if it ever happens again station staff have the ability to refund your journey at the ticket office. I was once at Victoria and waited forever for the district line until eventually I gave up and decided to go and take the bus. As I'd not gone anywhere I wasn't impressed with my oyster being deducted to stand around for 20 minutes so I went to the ticket office to get it sorted.

However, I'm not sure if there are any ticket offices left now!

MrChips

wealdroam wrote: »

As you say, you are biased.

As I said earlier, If these were buses you had boarded, I would suggest that having touched in three times you would expect to be charged three times. Furthermore I would guess that you would not even consider trying to claim any of those fares back.

Extrapolate that a little bit to... if you had to touch in on boarding the three trains, would your claim for a refund be equally as valid?

You have been treated to some generous goodwill here.

But that's sort of my point. Buses charge per journey, fair enough I would have to get off the bus and get on another one and pay for a new journey. Tube journeys are priced depending on the station you join and exit the network. When joining and exiting at the same station I don't feel I should pay anything as the net distance they have taken me is zero. Maybe I am just being a bit mathematical and thinking in vector terms!

But while on the subject, I don't like how bus journeys are priced. If you are fortunate enough to have a bus route which takes you exactly where you want to go you pay once. If you need three buses you pay three times. It seems rather arbitrary to me. But I guess it would be difficult to have it any other way.

In some other countries if you are changing buses/trams to continue your journey, you can demonstrate that you paid your fare within the last, say, hour and continue with no additional cost.

zaax

But if you had got on a bus and walked off the other door you would have still have paid £1.50

Guest101

Moscow operates a much simpler system.

1 Journey into the underground costs a set amount. No matter where you go, or how long you travel. Once you leave the jurisdiction of the underground, your journey is complete.

If TFL claim the equivalent is £10.40 then its a complete joke.

- i doubt whether you'll get a refund, just think it's an absurd system