Pension Pot

mgdavid

People who are sensible with money know better than to pee it up the wall down the pub.

greenglide

And a response of "I will get £10,000 every year, index linked, for the rest of my life plus a pension for my wife if I should die first" wouldn't cut the mustard?

The average man in the street or in the pub doesn't have the slightest clue about how to convert a cash sum into an income stream over many years. Knowing the CETV is of no use to the majority of people as they will fail to convert this into income the scheme promised.

agarnett

greenglide wrote: »

And a response of "I will get £10,000 every year, index linked, for the rest of my life plus a pension for my wife if I should die first" wouldn't cut the mustard?

It would if said with any confidence and understanding. But are you going to put that on the OP's lips without further question?

The average man in the street or in the pub doesn't have the slightest clue about how to convert a cash sum into an income stream over many years.

And this is good because ... ?

Knowing the CETV is of no use to the majority of people as they will fail to convert this into income the scheme promised.

And so you decide, and they suck it up?

Get over yourselves, please.

BobQ

agarnett wrote: »

It would if said with any confidence and understanding. But are you going to put that on the OP's lips without further question?

And this is good because ... ? And so you decide, and they suck it up?

Get over yourselves, please.

Is there any point to your ramblings?

The OP seems satisfied. Had he asked more questions he would have got more answers.

Most people with a DB pension will not benefit from converting it to a DC scheme and OP never asked about converting it or drawing cash from it. Nobody has made any decisions for him.

agarnett

BobQ wrote: »

Most people with a DB pension will not benefit from converting it to a DC scheme and OP never asked about converting it or drawing cash from it. Nobody has made any decisions for him.

Dunstonh gave a misleading answer. He actually said the pension freedoms had virtually no impact on the OP's type of pension. You are right, the OP did not ask about converting his DB to DC, but he did title this thread "Pension Pot" which is a pretty good indication that he wondered if there was a pot of cash with his name on it (as one does in March 2015!).

Now let's be sensible. Of course the new freedoms impact upon private sector DB (final salary) pensions. Why else are certain advisers and others up in arms about exactly that if the new pension freedoms have virtually no impact?

Yes it is fact that anyone seeking to cash in a DB scheme might need their head examining, but pension freedoms have given us some choice in the matter.

I have a private sector DB (final salary) pension. I shall probably now be ditching it and using my DB pension pot for something I consider to be much more useful than sitting around waiting to see what happens next with my DB scheme. To be honest I have become quite sick of the mealy mouthed answers I get from providers currently entrusted with my pensions when I ask for the most basic information and explanations of what the hell they've been playing at in arriving at the the limited set of numbers they publish to me - usually these days, only after I have had to request information, because they don't voluntarily send a great deal out anymore. They're pretty much all crooks in my book and the sooner I am shot of them from my world the better I reckon.

So now you know as much about mine as you do about the OP's DB pension, except that you also know that you will not so easily persuade me I have no pension pot because I will confidently use the word pension pot if I feel like it because that's what it bloody well is if I make it so!

I have obtained a CETV for my DB scheme benefits, and I have made contact with the right people, so I can have my pot and smoke it quite soon as I wish.

So what's so unique about mine that means most people with a private sector final salary pension can't do the same once they are over 55 if they are so minded ? ...

Not a lot I dare suggest ...


You say the OP seems satisfied. Possibly you are right. But this isn't a confidential surgery. It is an open forum, so please consider who else is here reading this thread and looking for broader answers to the same question.

sandsy

agarnett wrote: »

Dunstonh gave a misleading answer. He actually said the pension freedoms had virtually no impact on the OP's type of pension.

That's not misleading. They only impact indirectly.

agarnett wrote: »

You are right, the OP did not ask about converting his DB to DC, but he did title this thread "Pension Pot" which is a pretty good indication that he wondered if there was a pot of cash with his name on it (as one does in March 2015!).

There is no pot of cash with his name on. The assets of a DB pensions fund are pooled for the benefit of all members. Where a member wants to leave early, it requires a special calculation to determine a fair value of the future benefits that might have been payable, the payment of which would not prejudice the remaining members if the transfer goes ahead.

agarnett wrote: »

Now let's be sensible. Of course the new freedoms impact upon private sector DB (final salary) pensions. Why else are certain advisers and others up in arms about exactly that if the new pension freedoms have virtually no impact?

Two possible conflicting answers to this:
a) because it's a money making opportunity, or
b) because they actually care about people not making the wrong decisions which is probably why most advisers went into advising in the first place.

agarnett wrote: »

Yes it is fact that anyone seeking to cash in a DB scheme might need their head examining, but pension freedoms have given us some choice in the matter.

Yep, very probably they are crazy given that both the Pensions Regulator and the FCA say that transferring out is only suitable for a very small minority of members.

agarnett wrote: »

I have a private sector DB (final salary) pension. I shall probably now be ditching it and using my DB pension pot for something I consider to be much more useful than sitting around waiting to see what happens next with my DB scheme.

Ahhh, finally, your admission that you are crazy.....

agarnett wrote: »

To be honest I have become quite sick of the mealy mouthed answers I get from providers currently entrusted with my pensions when I ask for the most basic information and explanations of what the hell they've been playing at in arriving at the the limited set of numbers they publish to me - usually these days, only after I have had to request information, because they don't voluntarily send a great deal out anymore. They're pretty much all crooks in my book and the sooner I am shot of them from my world the better I reckon.

You don't have providers of DB schemes. There are a set of trustees who duty of care towards you and your fellow members.

agarnett wrote: »

So now you know as much about mine as you do about the OP's DB pension, except that you also know that you will not so easily persuade me I have no pension pot because I will confidently use the word pension pot if I feel like it because that's what it bloody well is if I make it so!

I'm not sure that we wanted to know so much from someone who appears to have become so grumpy before their time....

agarnett wrote: »

I have obtained a CETV for my DB scheme benefits, and I have made contact with the right people, so I can have my pot and smoke it quite soon as I wish.!

Good for you. Just don't come back here whinging about making the wrong decision a few years down the line.

agarnett wrote: »

So what's so unique about mine that means most people with a private sector final salary pension can't do the same once they are over 55 if they are so minded ? ...

Not a lot I dare suggest ...

Actually, everyone's situation is unique, not only their DB scheme and their entitlements within in it, but any other arrangements they may have. Hence why advice is so important.

agarnett wrote: »

You say the OP seems satisfied. Possibly you are right. But this isn't a confidential surgery. It is an open forum, so please consider who else is here reading this thread and looking for broader answers to the same question.

Finally, you've just about said something sensible. Yes, the most important thing is that everyone can make an informed choice.

BobQ

agarnett wrote: »

Dunstonh gave a misleading answer. He actually said the pension freedoms had virtually no impact on the OP's type of pension. You are right, the OP did not ask about converting his DB to DC, but he did title this thread "Pension Pot" which is a pretty good indication that he wondered if there was a pot of cash with his name on it (as one does in March 2015!).

He gave an accurate answer as he does to everyone.

Now let's be sensible. Of course the new freedoms impact upon private sector DB (final salary) pensions. Why else are certain advisers and others up in arms about exactly that if the new pension freedoms have virtually no impact?

There is no impact (apart from the NI issue) except in your mind. You are the one inventing issues for the OP. Freedoms are not impact.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about "advisors". Advisors are simply concerned with the impact on them in dispensing valid advice as you would be if you were an advisor.

Yes it is fact that anyone seeking to cash in a DB scheme might need their head examining, but pension freedoms have given us some choice in the matter.

So?

I have a private sector DB (final salary) pension. I shall probably now be ditching it and using my DB pension pot for something I consider to be much more useful than sitting around waiting to see what happens next with my DB scheme.

You are free to do what suits you, but that is not helping the OP. If you have special circumstances (eg expecting to die in three years) it may make sense but that is your issue not the OPs.

They're pretty much all crooks in my book and the sooner I am shot of them from my world the better I reckon.

You seem determined to cut your nose off to spite your face.

So now you know as much about mine as you do about the OP's DB pension, except that you also know that you will not so easily persuade me I have no pension pot because I will confidently use the word pension pot if I feel like it because that's what it bloody well is if I make it so!

Who said you could not? Not me.

You say the OP seems satisfied. Possibly you are right. But this isn't a confidential surgery. It is an open forum, so please consider who else is here reading this thread and looking for broader answers to the same question.[/QUOTE]

If you want to discuss poor pensions advice and rant about things the place to do it is "Discussion". This forum is intended to answer specific questions posed by individuals, not to rant about yourself.

I am putting you on ignore.

agarnett

That's not misleading. They only impact indirectly.

A bit like a severe rear end shunt only indirectly might give you whiplash ? Seriously, why are so many of you intent on splitting hairs?

There is no pot of cash with his name on. The assets of a DB pensions fund are pooled for the benefit of all members. Where a member wants to leave early, it requires a special calculation to determine a fair value of the future benefits that might have been payable, the payment of which would not prejudice the remaining members if the transfer goes ahead.

Yes yes. That's part of the original story about the workings of DB schemes. But you've left out the most important bits i.e. that before anything is pooled, it has to be put in, primarily by the employer providing the scheme. In the old days that was a very virtuous provision given as a serious perk to valued staff.

When staff become less valued, or God forbid, leave the employ of the provider, then their future becomes solely dependent upon the morals of the board of directors of the employer and the trustees of the scheme. There is scope for massive conflict of interest and abundance of dissembling nonsense such as
[SIZE=-2]"The assets of a DB pensions fund are pooled for the benefit of all members. Where a member wants to leave early, it requires a special calculation to determine a fair value of the future benefits that might have been payable, the payment of which would not prejudice the remaining members if the transfer goes ahead."[/SIZE]

This I think is because too many DB schemes are now operated like semi-Ponzi schemes i.e. on a never never basis. There is no longer any intention by employers or their tame trustees to fully fund any of these schemes anymore. They gave that up after the silly seasons of the late 80s when employers declared schemes to be in such surplus that they gave themselves contribution holidays an even took money out of some schemes and awarded it back to shareholders.

Ever since, the pervading trend has been to run DB schemes on a constant deficit basis. Dishonesty and abdication has abounded, all fronted by the name of TRUST. Just look at the number of DB Schemes that have been wound up by employers who were not broke or anywhere near broke, but simply decided they could stop the virtuous bit, and get away with reneging - thousands of them in fact.

That background and climate has somehow then been used to suggest that any DB schemes which remain must somehow be la crème de la crème and run by les bons gars. If you remain a member of any DB scheme you are encouraged to consider yourself "lucky". As always the real agendae and motivations are a complex mix, but I think are most likely to reflect tendencies of the modern labour market - a market where zero hours contracts and wages below accepted minimum living wage are defended at one extreme, and at the other, certain types of "worker" are so "all in it together" that they are encouraged to invest their entire annual salaries into second pensions alongside their DB schemes! They cream off massive amounts of tax relief while the real workers are struggling to pay their daily flat rate overdraft fees.

Yes if you are a private sector DB scheme member, you can probably consider yourself to have been lucky to date - your DB scheme still exists and if you have the option to take a CETV, now may be a very good time, but what control over its future do you have if you stay put? Is there a strong union keeping the employer and trustees in line? Are there right now new plans afoot to marginalise your interests held in trust in the scheme?

Now you tell me why, without heavyweight employee group support and representation, anyone should blindly trust a director of a DB scheme providing employer, or a trustee appointed by said employer, who undoubtedly will be part of the 'all in it together crew' described above by sandsy and by me, if the member no longer is part of that 'in' crowd, or never was. Maybe the worker is shop floor. Maybe the worker was white collar but moved on. Why should there be blind trust by ordinary members in the scheme providers in the pervading 2015 climate? Surely that would be just as crazy as blindly transferring out?

What is good for the 'all in it together' crew used to be good for all when the successful employers were benevolent, but that is NOT necessarily the case now. Shop floor workers and deferred members must constantly watch out for deliberate undermining of their employers' pension promises to them.

And for some of us, there comes a time when there are choices to be made. As you say, each case is unique, but blind trust in existing schemes is dangerous for all but insiders.

atush

BobQ wrote: »

He gave an accurate answer as he does to everyone.



There is no impact (apart from the NI issue) except in your mind. You are the one inventing issues for the OP. Freedoms are not impact.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about "advisors". Advisors are simply concerned with the impact on them in dispensing valid advice as you would be if you were an advisor.



So?

I have a private sector DB (final salary) pension. I shall probably now be ditching it and using my DB pension pot for something I consider to be much more useful than sitting around waiting to see what happens next with my DB scheme.

You are free to do what suits you, but that is not helping the OP. If you have special circumstances (eg expecting to die in three years) it may make sense but that is your issue not the OPs.



You seem determined to cut your nose off to spite your face.



Who said you could not? Not me.

You say the OP seems satisfied. Possibly you are right. But this isn't a confidential surgery. It is an open forum, so please consider who else is here reading this thread and looking for broader answers to the same question.

If you want to discuss poor pensions advice and rant about things the place to do it is "Discussion". This forum is intended to answer specific questions posed by individuals, not to rant about yourself.

I am putting you on ignore.[/QUOTE]


Yep I had to ignore too. It was too irritating seeing his poorly thought out rants. But at least unlike berbastrike I did not have to report nasty PMs.

mgdavid

Also put on Ignore yesterday!