Police Pension changes

Spidernick

Des,

Do you mind telling us what age you retired at? The problem was that certainly the police, and I think firefighters as well, could retire on a full pension at 50 and quite easily receive their pension for more years than they were actually working. This is, quite frankly, ludicrous and was unsustainable. If you have benefited from this then I'd say count your blessings, but what you are getting is overly generous in the extreme!

atush

Des, you are a moaner lol.

but you do bring up salient points. and I would pose the fact that govts of both persuasions had reductions to these pensions say these pensions were too generous to begin with. And things had to change. We could not afford them.

However, I do realize, even though not an economist, that the farming out/privatisation of non operational posts means that the age 60 retirement is unfair if there are no posts for such persons to move to. If these posts are brought back w/in the service, for older experienced firefighters to take up if they fail fitness tests, would help.

But would command a lower salary. so adjustments for this would be made as well?

but I would sugest that salaries for such posts would be much lower.

Minrich

The old police pension scheme 1987 was Unbelievably good , the 2006 scheme was Fantastic and this 2015 one will be very good . It might not be as good as the other ones but then they don't exist anymore so are irrelevant . What is relevant is what you can get out of contributing to the new scheme and one of the biggest benefits is the index linking that it gives the scheme member . Compare it with other schemes and the 2015 scheme wins hands down .
The issue i see many officers have is WHEN can they access their pension and this looks like being 60 , this is still 7/8 years before anyone else , it is also not reduced actuarily if you do retire at 60 , same as 55 in the 2006 scheme and after 30 years in the 1987 scheme . So a benefit over most private schemes .
Will officers continue in the police until 60 ? Why not ? It just means remaining fit to do so and therein lies another issue about what the ill health pension arrangements will be in the 2015 scheme .
I think its possible , there are frontline officers out there now who are 55/56 plus and if you can't run as fast as you used to that's fine , nobody would criticize a 60 year old not catching a 20 year old in a running race or a fight , so just let it happen , age comes to us all .

Also the age of Police Officers retiring alot earlier than others , some doing so at 48 is over under the new scheme , this is a mental hurdle for many to overcome . Like the old schemes it is a thing of the past and to be honest long overdue ....

So in short my advice is join the new scheme , unless you are going to leave and do something else before age 40 .

vivaespana

Des - yes they are expecting police officers to work until 60 in order to retire on a full pension - it will make for an interesting police service I think as the focus is now pretty much on front line or nothing. Like you said, there are fewer and fewer roles for older officers to move into, and I think people are also forgetting the effect on health of shift work.

One of the tougher decisions is for those officers who maybe joined a little later than most, say aged 26-27 yes who had perhaps planned on leaving with less than 25 yrs service (so at an age where they can maybe regain their health away from shifts) - under the new scheme it will mean their pension will be deferred to age 67/68 instead of 60. I know many other sectors are being affected but I think the police is still quite a unique role with everything that is expected of them.

vivaespana

I also agree that retirement at 48 with a full pension is a bit OTT in this day and age, but 60 year old front line cops??? There are always exceptions, but it's not something I would want to invest my tax money in.

jamesd

desthemoaner wrote: »

first the Labour government and then much more so the Tory led Coalition began to dismantle the firefighters pension scheme. Their masterstroke was to decide that firefighters would have to work until the age of 60 to receive a full pension, despite numerous studies which have more or less confirmed that no serving member can maintain the required level of fitness up until that age, and that therefore many firefighters will find themselves being forced to leave the service with a much reduced pension; opportunities for redeployment into non operational roles being severely limited.

I agree that the union is right to fight this but I read the relevant studies when this mess first started and if I recall correctly the expected age-related failure rate is in the 15-30% range, not 100%.

My guess, never having done the job, is that there are operational locations that are less likely to have sustained aerobic needs at the level being tested than others. So there might be a chance to redeploy to regional alternative positions while keeping those who pass the fitness test 100% in the more likely to be stressed roles. Paying attention to the mix of firefighters so that there are some in each team who can handle it may also help.

That sort of thing wouldn't be a perfect world but it would better recognise reality than what the government or union are seeking, since neither appears to be on a course that will produce a better outcome.

desthemoaner wrote: »

Are police officers also being asked to work until 60 before they receive a full pension?

Police officers don't have the aerobic fitness requirement that age just causes some people to fail however hard they try. Also many more roles there that lack the sort of sustained aerobic role that firefighting can involve. Officers with lots of experience can be useful for reasons other than just physical fitness.

Spidernick

I know quite a few people around 60 who are all fit and could easily undertake physical activities. I don't know anyone who is frail at 60 and think this is all being overplayed to be frank. I expect there are hod carriers out there at 60+, otherwise what do they do before retirement?

worried_jim

Maybe having police officers aged nearer 60 will be a good thing and that they will use their many years experience before deciding to shoot a young unarmed Brazilian in the back of the head when he gets on the train. Maybe not though.

jamesd

Spidernick wrote: »

I know quite a few people around 60 who are all fit and could easily undertake physical activities. I don't know anyone who is frail at 60 and think this is all being overplayed to be frank. I expect there are hod carriers out there at 60+, otherwise what do they do before retirement?

The problem is not willingness to train hard or that some people work as hod carriers, since others won't be able to due to their own genetics.

The firefighter physical fitness test requirement is 42 VO2max with a fallback to 35. The problem with this is that a person's VO2max decreases naturally with age and beyond middle age it starts to increasingly shift away from heart fitness towards limitations in how muscles can process oxygen. Another problem is that it's dangerous to do the high stress parts of the job at lower levels, even below 42, because that's the level at which the risk of death during exercise starts to increase substantially.

Here are some tables illustrating how VO2max changes with age. Note that they give the mean so many of those tested had values below the mean. A summary for men:

Age 20-29: mean 54
Age 30-39: mean 49
Age 40-49: mean 47
Age 50-59: mean 42
Age 60-69: mean 39

Chickereeeee

jamesd wrote: »

Here are some tables illustrating how VO2max changes with age. Note that they give the mean so many of those tested had values below the mean. A summary for men:

Age 20-29: mean 54
Age 30-39: mean 49
Age 40-49: mean 47
Age 50-59: mean 42
Age 60-69: mean 39

That is a mean for the general population, including the mass of couch potatoes. I would expect people taking regular exercise, never mind actual training, would be somewhat higher...

C