Is being a tax avoider socially unacceptable?

prowla

If Ed/Dave/Nick want to stop people using legal avoidance techniques then they have to make them illegal.

BobQ

wotsthat wrote: »

Fairness and morality is being used for political reasons only. In the two examples we end up focusing on the burglar and tax avoider who are acting legally.

The cloud of moral indignation prevents us from asking why, if the government didn't intend the burglar to scratch the window or someone to avoid tax, the rules weren't written so these actions were illegal. Its carelessness in both examples not helped by an overly complicated tax system in the first place.

I'd be more impressed by Ed if he had the balls to say, for example, he was going to change the rules to be clearer. He won't because people and companies could calculate, in advance of the election, what their tax burden may be.

Were it only that simple. Creative tax avoidance has been around for years. It is not any party's fault. The point is that however you write the rules people find a creative way around. Were it easy to write unambiguous laws then in theory we would do it. But if you are an expert employed to make avoidance difficult, would you do this if you knew that a large part of your firm's business came from advising others how to avoid complying with the rules.

The Commons Public Accounts Committee said it was "very concerned" at the way the "big four" firms - Deloitte, Ernst and Young, KPMG, and PwC - were able to exploit loopholes in the tax laws, using "insider knowledge" from staff seconded to the Treasury to help people avoid taxes.

Committee chairman Margaret Hodge said the practice represented a "ridiculous conflict of interest" which should be banned.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10019709/HMRC-accused-of-cosy-relationship-with-firms-by-PAC.html

Tromking

CLAPTON wrote: »

Most (all?) small/medium businesses employ accountants to advice them on tax law.

Why do you what most UK based businesses to go off to Greece?

The moral imperative to pay tax should trump any tinpot conversation between client and accountant about tax law.
I mention Greece because it shows what can happen to a country when tax avoidance/evasion becomes something akin to a national sport.
Miliband's comments have been a welcome foil to Cameron's almost blind idolatry of the so called 'wealth creators' in my opinion.

N1AK

Tromking wrote: »

I mention Greece because it shows what can happen to a country when tax avoidance/evasion becomes something akin to a national sport.

All the commentary I've seen on Greek taxation is around tax evasion. Have you seen any coverage regarding tax avoidance, and/or are you aware of any information discussing it regarding Greece?

Ed Millibands rhetoric is simply making himself, politicians and the wealthy in general look worse. His families use of a deed of variation was clearly intended to decrease the inheritance tax paid by Ed's parents. It was text book, 100%, tax avoidance.

I know a family who are passing considerable property wealth from parents to children by putting the properties into a company, then transferring ownership of the company. That's a very brief summary. What they are doing will save £100,000s in IHT, it is legal, and is also clearly tax avoidance.

Ed would happily attack them for their actions if they were notable enough for him to think it worthwhile, but he's benefited, knowingly, from example the same behavior.

Tromking

N1AK wrote: »

All the commentary I've seen on Greek taxation is around tax evasion. Have you seen any coverage regarding tax avoidance, and/or are you aware of any information discussing it regarding Greece?

I haven't looked.
When you're talking about the moral imperative to pay tax, evasion and avoidance are the same thing.

N1AK

Tromking wrote: »

I haven't looked.
When you're talking about the moral imperative to pay tax, evasion and avoidance are the same thing.

No they aren't, except in some warped alternative reality you keep alluding to. What Ed's parents did was clearly tax avoidance, however the law was changed shortly afterwards to make what they did automatic. It cannot rationally be claimed to be equivalent to tax evasion (lying about income for example).

Tromking

N1AK wrote: »

No they aren't, except in some warped alternative reality you keep alluding to.

Perhaps my reality is not warped but is merely different and maybe even morally superior to yours.
As someone who has always paid tax PAYE the exercise in avoidance/evasion that some people engage in is repugnant to me and the reason Miliband is drawing attention to this issue is that he realises that I'm not alone in that view.

michaels

Tromking wrote: »

Perhaps my reality is not warped but is merely different and maybe even morally superior to yours.
As someone who has always paid tax PAYE the exercise in avoidance/evasion that some people engage in is repugnant to me and the reason Miliband is drawing attention to this issue is that he realises that I'm not alone in that view.

So you don't have any ISAs then....

CLAPTON

Tromking wrote: »

The moral imperative to pay tax should trump any tinpot conversation between client and accountant about tax law.
I mention Greece because it shows what can happen to a country when tax avoidance/evasion becomes something akin to a national sport.
Miliband's comments have been a welcome foil to Cameron's almost blind idolatry of the so called 'wealth creators' in my opinion.

Should the moral imperative to pay tax trump the rule of law and create the rule of faux politician outrage and the baying newspaper mob?

You seem to say you have never been in a position to have to make a choice about deliberately paying more tax than you need, but are pompous and self righteous to know you would always pay more that legally necessary.


Well maybe or maybe not.

michaels

I understand Ed and Yvette also timed the disposal of her property to make sure there was no CGT liability...nothing to do with tax avoidance of course though.