Gross misconduct/fraud - Apprentice

organic50

Hello all,

my son has just phoned me in tears, he has been told that he is most likely going to be sacked for gross misconduct/fraud.

He is an apprentice in his 3rd year of 4. Working for a very large manufacturing company, with 12 3rd year apprentices.

He attends College one day per week, and this is where the misconduct has occurred.

He has had time off his college days for a variety of reasons, illness, hospital & doctors appointments, also when the teachers have not turned up.

His employer has accused him of being paid for time he wasn't at college, he always sent a message to his manager on days he has been able to attend and said this is fraud.

Any advice at this early stage would be great.

By the way, all the apprentices have had a "bol***king" this morning, so, its not just him.

Has anyone any experience of similar experiences.

Thank you Organic50

Snakey

I'd wait and see what he says when he gets home. They might have just been trying to shake them up.

In some cases there is safety in numbers and if the whole lot of them have been doing it - especially if they haven't appreciated that they were doing anything properly wrong - then the employer probably realises that it's the procedures that need to be tightened up rather than that people need to be sacked. This may be just their way of letting everyone know that the fun stops here.

wiogs

"He has had time off his college days for a variety of reasons, illness, hospital & doctors appointments, also when the teachers have not turned up." The way you have written this is sounds as if he uses his college days as a day to organise personal appointments. Is that the case?

"His employer has accused him of being paid for time he wasn't at college, he always sent a message to his manager on days he has been able to attend and said this is fraud." Who sent a message to who? Not clear on this bit.

How is he progressing on his apprenticeship generally? Is he doing well at college?

Undervalued

At least he has been employed for more than two years so has some protection from unfair dismissal.

As Snakey has said, for now all you can do is wait and see what, if anything, actually happens.

Hopefully he still has all messages saved on his phone.

Southend1

Is he a union member? If so he should contact his local rep for advice and support.

When he was absent did he follow the proper notification procedures e.g. phone in to a specific person rather than text the line manager?

How does his absence rate compare with the others?

organic50

Hello,
Thank you all so much for your quick responses, in reply to wiogs, they have an apprentice manager and always contact him.
I will get more info when he gets home on the other questions that were asked.
I havent had any further contact with son, other than the call, so, I will update about 4pm.

Thank you very much organic50

Takeaway_Addict

organic50 wrote: »

Hello,
Thank you all so much for your quick responses, in reply to wiogs, they have an apprentice manager and always contact him.
I will get more info when he gets home on the other questions that were asked.
I havent had any further contact with son, other than the call, so, I will update about 4pm.

Thank you very much organic50

Is the apprentice manager of the opinion that your son is then going to his normal workplace or simply going home?

Another_not_new_user

Rules around apprentices are different from other groups of employees, and whether, if he is dismissed, the usual laws around unfair dismissal apply would need to be considered - in many cases apprentices cannot claim unfair dismissal, but have greater protections in other aspects of the law. It is actually quite hard to dismiss an apprentice, although obviously if there has been misconduct, not impossible.


The immediately obvious questions I would be asking are:


Define what contacting a manager means - normally this means phoning and speaking to them, not leaving a message
What did he do with the rest of the days - a doctors appointment does not take all day, and most hospital appointments don't either? How come none of these things happen on a normal work day?
He has phoned in sick on college days - but not other days around these? That would look suspicious.
How many days are we actually talking about?
Isn't there an attendance requirement at college for apprentices, a minimum attendance qualification? Has this been triggered? If not, does he know why this has suddenly become an issue - because someone has raised this matter with his manager, otherwise how would he have known he wasn't there?

BJV

Go and get legal advice.


Within the last two years the way in which apprentices where employed has changed. TBH not sure exactly when but think it was early 2012- apprentices had a contract of employment which was three way contract between the college and the employer and the apprentice.


This meant that dismissing an apprentice was almost impossible. ( you really do not want to know how I know! )


See what happens and then go and speak to an employment solicitor. The first consultation is normally free.


You have to also remember and don't wish to be nasty but I have to say if I was your sons employer I would be miffed. Sending a text or face book message is not a good, professional or in our company acceptable way of letting someone know that you are unfit for work.


He sounds upset so I would get all the facts, dates etc and then take a fresh look. Good luck

Southend1

BJV wrote: »

Go and get legal advice.
...

See what happens and then go and speak to an employment solicitor. The first consultation is normally free.

Or he will have full access to free legal advice through his union if a member.

If not, it is worth mentioning for others that the subs for apprentices are normally very good value (e.g. £10 per year)

Poppie68

College is an integral part of a apprenticeship... if your son as missed too many days he will not be able to complete his apprenticeship regardless of keeping work informed.