Kamikaze Cyclists!

Gavin83

jack_pott wrote: »

Why are you only interested in comparing good motorists with bad cyclists and not bad motorists with good cyclists?

Because it's a topic about bad cyclists. If you want to discuss bad motorists create another topic.

There is a real taboo here about insulting cyclists. If someone makes a comment about a bad cyclist a number of posters jump all over them. However if a poster makes a topic about some bad driving there is in no way the same level of reaction.

I see bad examples of cycling and bad examples of driving on a daily basis. I guess the difference is the cyclists largely get away with it, legally at least.

brat

Gavin83 wrote: »

There is a real taboo here about insulting cyclists. If someone makes a comment about a bad cyclist a number of posters jump all over them. However if a poster makes a topic about some bad driving there is in no way the same level of reaction.

That's not true.

As an experiment I opened a thread a couple of hours ago on the motoring forum with a bullish rant identical to that of tilt's op. The rant is true from my own experience, but to put it on a motoring forum would be asking for trouble. Have a read of it, and see that not only do motorists fail to answer the question, they have, as expected, more or less jumped all over me.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5140228

The topic has largely derailed as I expected into an anti cycling feeding frenzy. If I put exactly the same post on to a specific cycling forum it would be met with almost universal agreement.

None of us cyclists are our brothers keepers. We know that cyclists should have lights, be visible and adhere to laws. That's a given. Some don't do it for their own personal reasons, but other law abiding cyclists can't do anything about that.
So why bring the subject up again and again (as tilt does) on a cycling forum. The probable answer is to bait and antagonise, as my little foray onto the motoring forum has clearly shown.

Norman_Castle

I see bad examples of cycling and bad examples of driving on a daily basis. I guess the difference is the cyclists largely get away with it, legally at least.

I live in a city. Speeding and using a hand help phone is extremely common with motorist who largely get away with it. The difference is your perspective.

wheelz

jack_pott wrote: »

If anyone wants to see why motorists get so exercised about cyclists, all they need to do is look at the other things that wind motorists up: other motorists, traffic jams, speed cameras, pedestrians, yellow lines, etc. In fact anything that gets between them and what they feel entitled to. What makes the torment even worse is watching how cyclists can often pass freely through the congestion that's holding up the motorists.

It has little or nothing to do with any concern for cyclists safety.

You can add motorcyclists there. They can also make more progress in slow traffic and traffic jams. Or waiting for traffic lights in a long queue as a motorcyclist you can overtake and make your way to the front. Car drivers who get angry about that should buy a motorbike and ride one, we would also have less congestion. Kill two birds at the same time. Various studies have shown this. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/9272532/Why-commuting-by-motorcycle-is-good-for-everyone.html

wheelz

armyknife wrote: »

Can anyone else see a pattern here of the last 7 threads started by our 'friend'?: ie. TILT

'Tilt' have you ever given the following some thought.

In the UK we don't prioritise cycling and have not like in some other countries like the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany reversed the domination of the car in the public realm.

There simply is no safe place to go for cyclists so where they should be given priority or should get through easily on the road it can't be done. They get frustrated and find ways. Don't blame the cyclist if the infrastructure and investment etc. is not there (yet).

In 2011, an all-party Parliamentary cycling group commissioned the Get Britain Cycling report (pdf) which set out the bold aim to increase the proportion of cycle journeys in Britain from two per cent in 2011 to 10 per cent by 2025, and 25 per cent in 2050. They estimated that this would require a cycling budget of £10-£20 per person per year, or 4-8 per cent of the current transport budget. England presently spends less than £2 per head on cycling and Scotland roughly £4.

There is a long way to go before the UK is even close to being a cycling-friendly nation.

Please don't blame the cyclist they have to brave enough as it is. But they should use their lights.

Show some compassion Tilt.

wheelz

brat wrote: »

So why bring the subject up again and again (as tilt does) on a cycling forum. The probable answer is to bait and antagonise, as my little foray onto the motoring forum has clearly shown.

If it's that obvious, is the forum not moderated or can admin not give him a warning? Just wondering.

Tilt

wheelz wrote: »

'Tilt' have you ever given the following some thought.

In the UK we don't prioritise cycling and have not like in some other countries like the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany reversed the domination of the car in the public realm.

There simply is no safe place to go for cyclists so where they should be given priority or should get through easily on the road it can't be done. They get frustrated and find ways. Don't blame the cyclist if the infrastructure and investment etc. is not there (yet).

In 2011, an all-party Parliamentary cycling group commissioned the Get Britain Cycling report (pdf) which set out the bold aim to increase the proportion of cycle journeys in Britain from two per cent in 2011 to 10 per cent by 2025, and 25 per cent in 2050. They estimated that this would require a cycling budget of £10-£20 per person per year, or 4-8 per cent of the current transport budget. England presently spends less than £2 per head on cycling and Scotland roughly £4.

There is a long way to go before the UK is even close to being a cycling-friendly nation.

Please don't blame the cyclist they have to brave enough as it is. But they should use their lights.

Show some compassion Tilt.

Clearly another cyclist who miss-understands my post.

If you were to grasp the real bones of the problem i've high-lighted (as I think Brat has now done), you should surely aree with me. My criticism wasn't aimed at ALL cyclists, just the reckless ones, like the ones I saw last Friday night. These are the people who give responsible cyclists a bad name.

There is simply NO excuse for riding a bike at night with no lights on. Try and imagine what it's like driving a long vehicle (a bus for example) along a busy central London street at night and picking out a cyclist undertaking/overtaking in your mirrors. Without a decent front light, they appear like a shadow which you could miss at first glance.

So I would of thought my "compassion" is obviously there... having concerns for these cyclists who are putting themselves in un-necessary danger.

Tilt

wheelz wrote: »

If it's that obvious, is the forum not moderated or can admin not give him a warning? Just wondering.

A warning for what? Expressing concerns for a road safety issue that you don't agree with?

Tilt

brat wrote: »

That's not true.

As an experiment I opened a thread a couple of hours ago on the motoring forum with a bullish rant identical to that of tilt's op. The rant is true from my own experience, but to put it on a motoring forum would be asking for trouble. Have a read of it, and see that not only do motorists fail to answer the question, they have, as expected, more or less jumped all over me.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5140228

The topic has largely derailed as I expected into an anti cycling feeding frenzy. If I put exactly the same post on to a specific cycling forum it would be met with almost universal agreement.

None of us cyclists are our brothers keepers. We know that cyclists should have lights, be visible and adhere to laws. That's a given. Some don't do it for their own personal reasons, but other law abiding cyclists can't do anything about that.
So why bring the subject up again and again (as tilt does) on a cycling forum. The probable answer is to bait and antagonise, as my little foray onto the motoring forum has clearly shown.

Oh dear... and we were doing so well. I havn't posted this on the motoring forum so who am I trying "to bait and antagonise"? I doubt if any responsible cyclist (or any other road user for that matter) would be "antagonised" by a thread about reckless cyclists... why on earth would they be? Unless they condone reckless cycling... :eek:

hugheskevi

I am always amused by these threads which to a greater or lesser extent bemoan cyclists for putting themselves in danger. I think the experience of most cyclists is that the danger comes not from their own actions, but from having to share roads with incompetent and dangerous drivers, stemming partly from a failure by police to enforce standards. In 15,000 miles of London cycling I've been put at risk by a reckless cyclist once (cycling wrong way down a busy bus lane, almost collided), which from some of the comments in this thread you would think is amazing fortune given how many are constantly ignoring every rule on the road.

I follow quite a few cyclists who run cameras on YouTube. Of course, anyone can link to YouTube clips to 'prove' anything. So if I limit the links below to those uploaded in the last 24 hours - and consider that being Christmas and the middle of winter the number of miles done by cyclists is probably a lot lower than normal - it gives an idea of the constant abuse and dangerous driving that comes with cycling in the UK.

(1) If you are in my way, I'll abuse you and try to kill you by hitting you at speed (incident at 55 seconds):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeT8PpuvJzs

(2) My failure to see the inevitable right in front of me leads to risk of collision (left hook, incident at 24 seconds):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0XuZ0-mN8

(3) They must be cyclists, as only cyclists blatantly run red lights (15 seconds and 35 seconds):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJgxfMcP5Y4

(4) Cyclist are scum, cause them as much trouble as possible (1 min 30 secs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQA6DiL36jU

(5) I have to leave room to safely overtake normally, but if there is a bit of paint on the road I can do whatever I like (13 seconds).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW_XB3obXlk

That is just a very small cross-section of cycling experiences today. They are only the more interesting ones - plenty of mobile phone use, parking in cycle lanes, ignoring advance stop zones and other such displays of contempt for road rules by drivers.

It doesn't prove anything, but illustrates the pathetic driving, poor attitudes and unwarranted abuse which any regular cyclist will experience on weekly, if not daily basis. It is very hard to take seriously assertions that the problem is with cyclists causing themselves problems when the small number of cyclists who do ride badly only risk themselves compared to the small but not insignificant proportion of idiot drivers such as those above who pose a risk to others.

The standard response to this sort of post is along the lines of yes, it is shocking, but what can be done it will always be like that, and it proves that cyclists need to do more to protect themselves. This often then leads to calls for insurance and testing of cyclists (well, they couldn't do any harm, could they, so why not - drivers have to?), which all rather misses the key point but deflects from the real issues to focus on things which are irrefutable - for example, that cyclists should use lights in dark conditions, and that until they do they 'cannot be taken seriously' (to quote Neil Greig, the rather questionable Director of Policy at the Institute of Advanced Motorists, who believes "cyclists must show responsibility if they want to be taken seriously as a mainstream form of transport” rather than the more conventional wisdom that all road users should abide by road rules and that no road user is answerable for the offences of other road users).