demotion!!

fatblokexl

my wife came home in tears today with news she may be demoted.
she has been with her employer for 7 years, has 100% attendance and conduct record ans has worked her way upto the manager of her department.
things have been hard for her as little or no training was recieved for her role, although the only difference from this role to her previous one was she hasn't managed staff but the job itself she can do on her head.

she was told today that her employer, a large hotel, will be "restructuring her dept and she will either have to slip back down to her previous role" (tough position to be in, i know as i was temp promoted myself for a while) or take another position in the hotel, potentially to which she might not be suited. In her eyes they told her, all but saying the words, you're no good at the job and your being demoted.

this will in any case result in a drop in wages.

there has been no official mention to her that her performance has not been what was expected or that anything is the reason.

can she do anything about this?
is there any regulations she will have the backing of?

Conor_3

If her job is being made redundant, which is basically what is happening, there's not really a lot you can do.

Whilst she's taking it personally, there may be nothing more to it than they've looked at the business and decided to do things differently.

fatblokexl

after the original posting i can be a bit more clear.
the temp manager of the hotel had previously told her that he did not think she should have been given the job in the first place but she was never officially told to improve or else.
they are not really restructuring but brining in someone to be manger of her dept (as she is currently) and putting her down to the number 2 with a wage drop also, and changing the way they do the work in her hotel to bring it in line with what they do in their other hotel in the US.
points to consider are:

1) no training to do her job as far as managing staff go.

2) never told she needs to improve in a structured official way. (from what i know in my job and looking at guidance on emp law on the net)

3) getting dropped a grade in status/pay without being able to show an improvement as no opportunity given (see number 2).

4) as her employer acknowledge this will be difficult for her they offered another role in the hotel to which she will have to apply for and not guaranteed to get as no experience in that post and potentially have lower wage again.

Conor_3

Ah well that's a totally different kettle of fish. I'd have expected her to have gone through some sort of disciplinery/internal procedure before being demoted.

ACAS is the best port of call TBH.

CFC

fatblokexl wrote: »

after the original posting i can be a bit more clear.
the temp manager of the hotel had previously told her that he did not think she should have been given the job in the first place but she was never officially told to improve or else.
they are not really restructuring but brining in someone to be manger of her dept (as she is currently) and putting her down to the number 2 with a wage drop also, and changing the way they do the work in her hotel to bring it in line with what they do in their other hotel in the US.




4) as her employer acknowledge this will be difficult for her they offered another role in the hotel to which she will have to apply for and not guaranteed to get as no experience in that post and potentially have lower wage again.

You're saying they are not restructuring, they are calling it a restructure to bring it in line with the way they do it in the US.

You'd need a great deal more info than posted here to be sure of exactly what is going on. Point 4 sounds like this is a redeployment situation, she has the choice of a redeployment into the number 2 position or into another job. If it is a restructuring, it is not a demotion, so the lack of disciplinary procedures against her is irrelevant.

The real question is what they are offering if she wants neither of these options. As they are saying that this is a restructuring and offering a drop in pay, I'd be expecting that they are also offering redundancy as an option - they can't withold this by just offering redeployment that is not wanted. If they are not offering redundancy, then it's not a restructuring, no matter what they call it, and they can't suddenly cut her wages. She needs to directly ask the question 'What happens if I do not wish to accept either of these offers?'

Your wife should be having a meeting with HR and a manager, or two managers, to discuss her options.

fatblokexl

CFC wrote: »

You're saying they are not restructuring, they are calling it a restructure to bring it in line with the way they do it in the US.

You'd need a great deal more info than posted here to be sure of exactly what is going on. Point 4 sounds like this is a redeployment situation, she has the choice of a redeployment into the number 2 position or into another job. If it is a restructuring, it is not a demotion, so the lack of disciplinary procedures against her is irrelevant.

The real question is what they are offering if she wants neither of these options. As they are saying that this is a restructuring and offering a drop in pay, I'd be expecting that they are also offering redundancy as an option - they can't withold this by just offering redeployment that is not wanted. If they are not offering redundancy, then it's not a restructuring, no matter what they call it, and they can't suddenly cut her wages. She needs to directly ask the question 'What happens if I do not wish to accept either of these offers?'

Your wife should be having a meeting with HR and a manager, or two managers, to discuss her options.

as far as i'm aware, there will be no other option but for her to leave.
there would be little or no scope for any other suitable position.
so far she has a choice of the following:

a) drop to number 2 and put up with the hassle/uncomfortableness and drop in pay.

b) take a much lower paid position (some £5k+ drop) + potentially work more hours

c) potentially get the other position mentioned in prev post but dets unknown as to hours/pay, but guaranteed to less wages

d) quit and take another job somewhere else.

over the weekend her mood as changed from anger to acceptance and she does not want to rock the boat (understandable in case the fire her) but annoying as she does'nt seem to know her rights as sheis not a part of any union and the hotel trade is rife with "come and go" policies.

i have asked her to get written confirmation of the details she was told on friday so she will have this as first notification that she was not performing and this was the result, and/or get a copy of the notes taken by HR at the meeting she was part of when this was discussed.

robnye

fatblokexl wrote: »

i have asked her to get written confirmation of the details she was told on friday so she will have this as first notification that she was not performing and this was the result, and/or get a copy of the notes taken by HR at the meeting she was part of when this was discussed.

that sounds like a blooming good first step ...

tell her not to be irrational/too quick in responding, but to take her time and get more advice, you try as suggested giving ACAS a call

CFC

You are quite right, she does need to get these notes. She should ask HR for a copy.

One thing they could well do as part of a disciplinary outcome is to demote her, but they cannot do that without a disciplinary. It will take pretty much a minimum of 4 weeks to get her to disciplinary since the point of telling her she is not performing adequately. They simply can't do it in less and still evidence that she has had adequate training for the job - because her defence will be 'I asked for training and it has not been supplied'. Just make sure that she does in fact ask NOW for the training, in writing.

The company is not under an obligation to provide training to people appointed into a new job, but if an employee asks for it as they have self-identified a training need and has not received it, it makes it difficult for an employer in a disciplinary hearing. Part of a management role is to identify your own shortcomings and work on them, requesting assistance if necessary - she should not rely on 'I received no training'...she needs to ask for it.

She needs to ask them the question directly - 'What if I choose not to be demoted, and choose not to apply for this other job, and not to accept a pay cut. What happens then?' She may need to keep her own notes in this meeting, in fact she may be better asking the question via email or writing and requesting a written response. They may just be attempting to avoid a potential redundancy situation by confusing her in meetings. If they put 'then you choose to leave' in writing without a redundancy reference they are toast.

I suggest you and your wife look at this link if their answer is not 'redundancy or potential disciplinary proceedings' to the above question, as she is very likely to have grounds for constructive dismissal. Your wife should not be concerned about being sacked from her job for asking these questions. She has full employment rights as you say that she has worked for this company for seven years.

fatblokexl

thanks for the replies.
she has now asked for the minutes of the meeting and will keep you posted when she gets them

fatblokexl

she has the minutes now and as for what the proceedure she is going through is called...she is none the wiser.
the cover letter from her HR dept say's...to cut a long story short... take number two post, or another post in the hotel or leave.

the hotel temp boss is minuted as saying they have given little or no training to her, although it is also minuted that 2 members of staff from the U.S. came here on a business trip and apparently "gave tuition and support" not long after she got the post.
the only time the wife saw them was for about half a day and they just sat there observing the operation.

to date they are still not saying it is demotion or disciplinary although her and a colleague sat down last night and got some questions together for her to ask today.

to be honest i feel she should just say i dont want number 2, or other jobs, if you want rid of me, sort me some redundancy.

she has worked there for 7 years, what sort of redundancy would she get?

CFC

Well if they only give statutory redundancy, the answer is 'not a lot'.

Work it out here

However, she should write to them raising a grievance on the basis of the notes supplied from that meeting. If they are not saying that she is in a redundancy situation and they are looking at potential redeployment, on what basis are they suggesting that she accepts a demotion or leaves the company, given that she has not received any kind of disciplinary reprimand?

I suggest at this point your wife contacts the CAB as it will be necessary to see the minutes before giving particular advice - and we clearly can't be in possession of all the facts on this forum.