"Resignation" vs. "Mutual Agreement" for reason for termination of contract

Firstwatch

Hello All,

I touched on this in a previous post, but I am concerned about the wording of the Settlement Agreement that is currently being negotiated between my Union and my Employer.
Here is an extract of an email reply from my Union Regional Official re: this question,

"I refer to your concerns in relation to reason for
termination. Whether we state ‘mutual agreement’ or
‘resignation’ both are difficult as either could pose a
problem. In particular a ‘resignation’ is better for
when securing employment as it does not alert an
employer to the settlement agreement, but it may work
against you when claiming benefits. ‘Mutual Agreement’
alerts an employer to the settlement agreement and can
still affect your claiming of benefits".

My questions are,
1..doesn't the fact that I have an "Agreed reference" on paper,
which is the only one that my soon to be ex-employer will provide to a
new prospective employer, alert them to a settlement agreement anyway?

2. Isn't "resignation" a bit more suspicious, after 8 years of employment? people
get asked to resign don't they, as opposed to them being sacked, and as it is clear
that I have done nothing wrong in this situation, so isn't it better that I just prepare
to answer interview questions about the "mutual agreement", which I think suggests
the employer is in someway at fault anyway?

3. Does anyone know, from personal experience or otherwise, is "resignation" or
"mutual agreement" makes a difference to a beneift claim, or are they both as bad as
each other? I don't see my payout lasting to long in paying bills and rent.

Thank you

tomtontom

Yes, an agreed reference can make employers suspicious. Have you not covered what will happen if a new employer asks your old employer to fill in their form?

Yes, resignation after 8 years will raise questions, but so will leaving by mutual agreement. Mutual agreement to me suggests some fault on both sides, it is very much open to interpretation.

When claiming JSA the JCP will write to your employer to ask their understanding of why you left. The JCP will look at the substance of the answer given (and your version also), and decide on that - not on the wording used.

Firstwatch

tomtontom wrote: »

Yes, an agreed reference can make employers suspicious. Have you not covered what will happen if a new employer asks your old employer to fill in their form?

Yes, resignation after 8 years will raise questions, but so will leaving by mutual agreement. Mutual agreement to me suggests some fault on both sides, it is very much open to interpretation.

Thank you. I have managed to ask a real friend in HR what normally happens, and she says that if she is sent a request by a new employer to fill out their reference form, where there is an agreed reference in place, she can only send this, and if they ask why, she has to reply that that is the policy, which looks pretty bad I guess.

Further to this, I just had an email from the union asking if I would be happy for my employer to give a telephone reference (it is in the draft settlement agreement) and I am inclined to say no - does anyone see any problems with this? The trust as far as "what is discussed/said behind closed doors" is long gone.

I am becoming more and more convinced that I should go with "mutual agreement" as opposed to "resignation". Trying to remain dispassionate when I hear my Employers responses to my union, but I feel that there should be a question mark as far "as fault on both sides" as I believe that the fault is almost entirely with them, I don't believe I have done anything wrong except stay there too long!

Another_not_new_user

I think I covered this in your previous thread. And I would want to be clear on the terms of your settlement agreement, but usually you are not permitted to disclose it or anything to do with it - so you can't "cover it" in your interviews because any disclosure makes the agreement null and void and subject to reclaim of the payment from you.

PHILANTHROPIST

Are you the OP who had agreed to a £4K settlement. I do not know the circs but generally speaking and unless you were partly to blame and on the national min wage then for 8 years service, £4K sounds like its way too low.

As for reason for leaving IMO it's a no brainer - resignation.

Phil

Another_not_new_user

Firstwatch wrote: »

Thank you. I have managed to ask a real friend in HR what normally happens, and she says that if she is sent a request by a new employer to fill out their reference form, where there is an agreed reference in place, she can only send this, and if they ask why, she has to reply that that is the policy, which looks pretty bad I guess.

Further to this, I just had an email from the union asking if I would be happy for my employer to give a telephone reference (it is in the draft settlement agreement) and I am inclined to say no - does anyone see any problems with this? The trust as far as "what is discussed/said behind closed doors" is long gone.

I am becoming more and more convinced that I should go with "mutual agreement" as opposed to "resignation". Trying to remain dispassionate when I hear my Employers responses to my union, but I feel that there should be a question mark as far "as fault on both sides" as I believe that the fault is almost entirely with them, I don't believe I have done anything wrong except stay there too long!

You do understand that (a) in education the employer has a duty to disclose if asked whatever the agreement says, and (b) you can refuse permission for a telephone reference but that does not ever stop people doing it anyway or talking to each other. As I told you previously. If they want to, they will.


The fact is that as an employer, I would question a resignation without a job to go to. I would question a mutual agreement just as much. Without an adequate explanation - which you may be legally unable to give due to the agreement - I wouldn't take the risk on you if there is another good candidate. It really doesn't matter what you believe. You can't say anything. And even if your current employer keeps to their word and says nothing more, you face a challenge in these circumstances.

Snakey

It depends what your employer normally does. Mine only gives a three-line standard reference confirming the dates of employment and job title even if you were a total star and they cried on the day you left. If the new employer starts sending in forms or phoning up for chats etc they just explain that it is not their policy to provide anything other than what they've already given them. I think this is standard for a firm that size in my industry and so a prospective employer receiving it would not bat an eyelid. Your situation may be different - a question for your union guy, perhaps?

As far as I know you don't actually have to have a reason for leaving put in your settlement agreement. You could just get them to delete the part of the sentence that reads "by reason of...". Presumably there is a clause in the agreement saying that the standard reference is the only thing they will provide to a future employer, so it's not as if they can suddenly turn around and start saying things about why you left etc.

You may have a problem anyway if you want to claim benefits, as your employer will presumably just not reply to any requests for further information. I don't know what the Job Centre guys do in this situation, whether they believe whatever you say as they have nothing to indicate the contrary or whether they do the opposite so that they can sanction you. I have seen advice given on this forum that it would be a good idea to see if you can get short-term seasonal employment (hurry, hurry...) rather than signing on right away, and then your reason for leaving that would be totally legit. I don't know if they are then allowed to look at the reasons why you left the job before that.

[I see loads of other people have given advice while I've been typing - I'll post this anyway since I've typed it, but I should add here that I have no professional experience of this sort of thing so this is a layman's opinion only. I second the comments about how the fact that you left without another job to go to is going to be the killer when it comes to interviews, rather than the words you use to describe this.]

andygb

PHILANTHROPIST wrote: »

Are you the OP who had agreed to a £4K settlement. I do not know the circs but generally speaking and unless you were partly to blame and on the national min wage then for 8 years service, £4K sounds like its way too low.

As for reason for leaving IMO it's a no brainer - resignation.

Phil

There is no minimum figure for compensation, and the employer can if they like, simply pay you notice and annual leave owing.
Unfortunately (I do have sympathy for the OP here) unless you go down the route of an industrial tribunal/constructive dismissal, which is very difficult to win nowadays, employers are very likely to give you the very minimum, and will not take length of service into account.:(

anamenottaken

I've probably misunderstood but the OP seems concerned, amongst other things, about the "agreed reference" as though it will be named as such when given to a prospective employer. Of course it won't be marked as "agreed reference", it will simply be whatever reference has been agreed. Or is there a draft agreed reference which includes in the text to be issued something like "We have agreed that we will give prospective employers the following reference in respect of Firstwatch."?

andygb

anamenottaken wrote: »

I've probably misunderstood but the OP seems concerned, amongst other things, about the "agreed reference" as though it will be named as such when given to a prospective employer. Of course it won't be marked as "agreed reference", it will simply be whatever reference has been agreed. Or is there a draft agreed reference which includes in the text to be issued something like "We have agreed that we will give prospective employers the following reference in respect of Firstwatch."?

I would expect the reference to simply be along the ines of - "X was employed by us between xxx and xxx as a - job title, maybe brief description of duties"

Undervalued

andygb wrote: »

Unfortunately (I do have sympathy for the OP here) unless you go down the route of an industrial tribunal/constructive dismissal, which is very difficult to win nowadays, employers are very likely to give you the very minimum, and will not take length of service into account.:(

Yes but even if you do go down the ET route and win, an ET has no power to order the former employer to provide a reference at all, let alone a good one.