Northern Rail fair-dodge letter

greyville

A friend (it's not me) got a letter on Saturday from Northern Rail

You can see it in this link:

http://postimg.org/image/5bg5wlgxh/

The facts are
- she arrived at Chorley station at peak time and found the queue longer than five minutes
- she asked a member of staff if she could board without a ticket and was allowed
- there was no conductor on the train walking through to allow her to buy a ticket
- she got off at Preston and approached a member of staff to ask where she could buy a ticket (as the main entrance, where the ticket desk was, was closed for repairs)
- he accused her of 'leaving the station' and fare dodging
- she insists she had not left the station.

Has anyone got any advice?

Gleeful

greyville wrote: »

A friend (it's not me) got a letter on Saturday from Northern Rail

You can see it in this link:

http://postimg.org/image/5bg5wlgxh/

The facts are
- she arrived at Chorley station at peak time and found the queue longer than five minutes
- she asked a member of staff if she could board without a ticket and was allowed
- there was no conductor on the train walking through to allow her to buy a ticket
- she got off at Preston and approached a member of staff to ask where she could buy a ticket (as the main entrance, where the ticket desk was, was closed for repairs)
- he accused her of 'leaving the station' and fare dodging
- she insists she had not left the station.

Has anyone got any advice?

There is more to this story, as the main entrance door and frontage have been closed, but the ticket offices and machines directly in front of these dooors in the entrance were not, so you can kind of see why they accused her of fare dodging

greyville

I wasn't there so it's hard for me to judge, though I do have a rough knowledge of the station layout.

I think the problem is that she saw that noone was leaving through the main entrance and assumed it was closed.

One of the difficulties is that we don't know what the evidence is. It's all a bit vague: Why can't NR disclose their case? It seems odd to ask the accuse to explain an allegation without detailing the allegation.

She says she approached the worker and asked where she could buy a ticket, but he stopped her in his tracks.

My understanding of the legislation is that, if she offers to pay there fare before leaving the station - or making an attempt to leave - she's okay. I stand to be corrected though.

This is a journey she does five times a week, both ways, and she knew she had to complete a return journey later that day.

wealdroam

The problem is that the NRCoC state:

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s)you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply.

Those 'other circumstances' effectively say 'if no facilities to buy your ticket exist'.
That of course is a great over-simplification.

What you, or your friend, needs to do is demonstrate that there was no opportunity to buy a ticket before travelling, and that there was no opportunity to buy a ticket whilst travelling.

The problem you have, or your friend has, is that it is easy for the railway company to think that if she hadn't been stopped she would not have bothered to buy a ticket.

As your friend makes this return journey five times a week, has she considered buying a season ticket?
That would avoid wasting time every day queuing for a ticket.

greyville

I agree with what you're saying.

She is a student and isn't always in five times a week - and isn't always travelling at peak time, so she doesn't want to buy a season ticket.

My understanding is that, at peak time, if the queue is five minutes or more, you can ask a member of station staff for permission to board the train without a ticket - and that is what she did (there is always someone on the door at Chorley and they check for people entering at the other point and changing platforms).

It's quite common for Northern Rail trains not to have conductors who proactively sell tickets, though I think she should have made more of an effort to speak to the conductor at station stops (there are two before Preston) to buy a ticket.

tripled

Sounds to me like she could have made more of an effort to speak to the conductor. This is certainly not the first thread on here where someone has had a penalty fare or prosecution because "the conductor didn't walk through", including where people were "queing for the ticket office" or "going up to a member of staff".

It might be worth giving yorkie2 a PM, he might be able to give some advice on how to word a response or point you in the direction of some other helpful people.

Voyager2002

The essential point is that she asked permission before beginning her journey and so had "authority to travel". Does she remember the name of the staff person who gave her permission to board the train before buying a ticket? Anyway, her response needs to emphasise this, and that she attempted to buy a ticket from the first staff member whom she encountered.

anotheruser

Next time, just get off and leave without paying.
Good on her for being honest but now look at the hassle :P

This is before Virgin put ticket gates in of course...

yorkie2

anotheruser wrote: »

Next time, just get off and leave without paying.
Good on her for being honest but now look at the hassle :P.

That's poor advice, as deliberately leaving without paying, when there was the facility to pay, could lead to a criminal record.

yorkie2

greyville wrote: »

A friend (it's not me) got a letter on Saturday from Northern Rail

You can see it in this link:

http://postimg.org/image/5bg5wlgxh/

The facts are
- she arrived at Chorley station at peak time and found the queue longer than five minutes
- she asked a member of staff if she could board without a ticket and was allowed
- there was no conductor on the train walking through to allow her to buy a ticket
- she got off at Preston and approached a member of staff to ask where she could buy a ticket (as the main entrance, where the ticket desk was, was closed for repairs)
- he accused her of 'leaving the station' and fare dodging
- she insists she had not left the station.

Has anyone got any advice?

Providing there was no evidence of attempting to exit Preston station without paying*, I'd say this case is worth fighting. Your friend should consult a solicitor with appropriate experience before proceeding.

(* For example, heading towards an exit, if the signage indicated the ticket office was the other direction)

pb8770

As a conductor, the person who is accusing her of fare dodging is in fact issuing a failure to purchase notice. Northern have introduced the 'failure to purchase' because there is obviously a lot of fare evasion through out the network. It is being used under the 'conditions of carriage' it states if you board at a station where facilities are available to purchase tickets and if you choose to just board a train without queuing then you are breaking the conditions hence you could end up with a criminal record.
I understand it must be frustrating when you turn up at a station and the queue is 5 miles long, rather than be put in that position and you know you are travelling Mon-Fri then buy 5 days worth of tickets on a Sunday when its quiet, or if that isn't possible due to not being open on Sundays buy 5 days worth off the conductor, he/she will be quite happy to sell you 5 days worth, it'll be easier and more convenient, however if you are buying 5 days worth it'll be more cost effective buying a weekly.