Stay or go? EU poll - Oh the irony.

kabayiri

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

...
We can either be in the EU and accept free movement and be better off both for society and the majority of individuals, or we can choose to leave and have both society and the majority of individuals be worse off.
...

I believe in free movement of labour within the EU. To be able to apply your skills in a market of 200m means you can ride out any local recessions.

I don't personally think this should translate into wholesale migration of people.

Making sure we are at the forefront of technological development will be the best thing we can do to make sure we remain an economic force.

Bantex_2

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

And since when have you not.....



The economics of the situation have nothing to do with vision.

We can either be in the EU and accept free movement and be better off both for society and the majority of individuals, or we can choose to leave and have both society and the majority of individuals be worse off.

That point is abundantly clear.

Where 'vision' comes into it is that some people think being poorer is a price worth paying to remain stuck in the past, or protect national identity, or whatever.....

However just as in the Scottish Indyref debate, those same people know full well that they cannot win their argument and get what they want if they're honest about the consequences.

That is why we keep seeing these repeated nonsense economic arguments and misleading assertions about migration, about the costs of the EU, etc.

Where people try to proclaim the grass is blue and the sky is green, and the sun orbits around the flat earth, and the lump of labour fallacy is brought up again, and again, and again..

It is of course nothing short of deliberate deception and lies.

Convincing sounding mistruths designed to appeal to emotions and 'common sense' (which is rarely either) in an effort to win over the ill-educated and gullible/naive segments of the population.

I would have far more respect for these posters if I didn't know full well what trickery and deception they were up to.

Just be honest....

Admit you (the generic you, not Kabayiri in particular) don't like foreigners, don't like change, don't like free trade, or free movement, or new developments, or population growth, or whatever.

State clearly that you know full well we'll all be poorer and it will cost us dearly, that our taxes will rise and our incomes fall, that servicing the national debt will become a cripplingly high burden, and then explain why you think it's worth it anyway.

If they did that, I'd disagree, but at least I could respect their honesty....:cool:

I could live with a fall in income if it meant cheaper housing, less traffic on the roads, easier access to the NHS, schools, etc.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Bantex wrote: »

I could live with a fall in income if it meant cheaper housing, less traffic on the roads, easier access to the NHS, schools, etc.

It would lead to much, much higher taxes, worse access to the NHS, reduced benefits and services, a pension crisis, higher unemployment, more expensive goods and services, as well as lower wages.

It is a lose/lose proposition for the vast majority of people.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

It would lead to much, much higher taxes, worse access to the NHS, reduced benefits and services, a pension crisis, higher unemployment, more expensive goods and services, as well as lower wages.

It is a lose/lose proposition for the vast majority of people.

Greece, Italy, Spain etc benefit from all these wonderful advantages as well as being in the Euro zone (another major benefit that UK lacks)
additional they have the massive benefit of high immigration


why don't they benefit from lower taxes, better health services, lower unemployment, cheaper goods and services and higher wages.


does this obvious universal law of economics, you constantly post about, only apply to a small island off the coast of Europe?

ruggedtoast

CLAPTON wrote: »

Greece, Italy, Spain etc benefit from all these wonderful advantages as well as being in the Euro zone (another major benefit that UK lacks)
additional they have the massive benefit of high immigration


why don't they benefit from lower taxes, better health services, lower unemployment, cheaper goods and services and higher wages.


does this obvious universal law of economics, you constantly post about, only apply to a small island off the coast of Europe?

Europe isn't a magical gravy train. Greece Italy etc. have themselves to blame for their own predicament.

They have done this cycle what they have done for generations, except now instead of going bankrupt, electing a new mid term government and printing an extra ten zeros on whatever monopoly money they are using, they actually have to sort our their systemic problems. They'll either do it or leave.

Why should we support economic left wing basket cases that won't make the changes we were forced to decades ago?

You should be celebrating that Clapton. Considering your other views.

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Europe isn't a magical gravy train. Greece Italy etc. have themselves to blame for their own predicament.

They have done this cycle what they have done for generations, except now instead of going bankrupt, electing a new mid term government and printing an extra ten zeros on whatever monopoly money they are using, they actually have to sort our their systemic problems. They'll either do it or leave.

Why should we support economic left wing basket cases that won't make the changes we were forced to decades ago?

You should be celebrating that Clapton. Considering your other views.

I entirely agree with you that the EU is not a magical gravy train but is subject to normal laws of economics.
Whether a particular country benefits from the EU depends upon both their own circumstances plus the rules and regulations of the EU and the particular circumstances of each of the EU countries.
Whilst I agree that many of the problems of the southern EU countries are home made, it's obviously true than many of these problems are due to the built in structural problems of the EU.
I also agree that it may well be better in many (maybe all) countries left the EU and created a better trading system, based on rational economic principles and a significant reduction is corruption.

.string.

CLAPTON wrote: »

why don't they benefit from lower taxes, better health services, lower unemployment, cheaper goods and services and higher wages.

My daughter lives in Spain and has serious cancer. She gets enormous help from the Spanish equivalent of the NHS, with up to date and expensive drugs, free hospital treatment and good priority given to her needs. I admit that I cannot (thankfully) directly compare with the NHS but have a strong impression that the Spanish Health Service is at least up to the standard of the NHS and possibly surpasses it.

Naturally i am very worried at a possible exit of the UK from the EU and the possible impact on my daughter's rights to this care, whether they would continue and whether if she had to leave Spain that she would be treated as well by the NHS.

There's more that could be said on that but I don't wish to go further.

When I read some of the simplistic things that UKIP put about regarding the EU I shudder at the consequences of leaving the EU without a thought of trying first to improve it to our advantage and nary a thought for how it will affect the lives of all those Brits who are themselves immigrants in other lands.

CLAPTON

.string. wrote: »

My daughter lives in Spain and has serious cancer. She gets enormous help from the Spanish equivalent of the NHS, with up to date and expensive drugs, free hospital treatment and good priority given to her needs. I admit that I cannot (thankfully) directly compare with the NHS but have a strong impression that the Spanish Health Service is at least up to the standard of the NHS and possibly surpasses it.

Naturally i am very worried at a possible exit of the UK from the EU and the possible impact on my daughter's rights to this care, whether they would continue and whether if she had to leave Spain that she would be treated as well by the NHS.

There's more that could be said on that but I don't wish to go further.

When I read some of the simplistic things that UKIP put about regarding the EU I shudder at the consequences of leaving the EU without a thought of trying first to improve it to our advantage and nary a thought for how it will affect the lives of all those Brits who are themselves immigrants in other lands.

Your daughter has my sympathy for her situation and my best wishes for her recovery.

triplem_uk

Keep a common trading relationship but lose the government side

gfplux

This thread has calmed down a little so I feel I can dip my toes in to it. I do not wish to add or to detract from the debate on wether the UK should leave the EU. As a retired Brit who is resident in Luxembourg I will not have a vote. You will all do what you have to do when the time comes.

I am more interested in how your politicians have failed you while you have been members of the EU.

With a growing and ageing population that has been plain to see and predict since even the 1980's why today when I visit the UK do I and many other visitors from the EU think say and do the following,
I say most not all, perhaps that should be many,
If I or they become ill get on the next available plane or ferry so to be treated at home,
Find public transport (in London) overcrowded for much of the day and sooooooo expensive.
If I drive between the channel ports and anywhere in England it is impossible to predict accurately how long the journey will take.
Etc, etc,
There may be other problems that you know better than I.
What I do know is that much of the UK problems today have been caused my inaction by your politicians in building for the future in the 80's 90's and even now.
Hopefully the above comments will not result in my toe being burnt(flamed)