Very OLD debt query?

DebtMagnet

I have tried to find the answer to this question from within the threads already on here but can’t find anything that fits so excuse me if I ask a silly question.

I just found out recently that my Mum has been paying off a very old debt to a debt recovery agency for the past 14 years or so. I was stunned that she had been paying a debt for this long and asked her to get me all the information together to look at.

Anyway the debt relates to a £9k overdraft on a joint Business bank-account dating back to 1993. My Mum and Her husband at the time got divorced and he declared himself bankrupt. Although the business was his and she had no real involvement, like many married couples it was all in joint names. The bank must have sold the debt and the debt agency came chasing my Mum for money.

Although she was obviously aggrieved by being chased for a debt that wasn’t really hers, she didn’t want any trouble and so agreed to pay her share. Her solicitor at the time told her that she was accountable for half of the debt and so she agreed to co-operate. After the split, my Mum was not working and was staying with a friend.
When she explained that she wasn’t working they accepted a payment of £5 a month. She soon got a job and the payment went up to £10 a month. It transpires that the Debt agency have constantly hassled her month after month, year after year to increase payments and over time they have crept up to over £50 a month. She has never missed a payment (although she has been late on occasions) and the account is up to date, but she still owes approx £2k.

Now my question is this: As the debt was a joint debt in the first place and she has now paid well over her half of the debt, would she have any rights to tell them where to go and not pay any longer? Or is it a case that because she agreed to start paying, she inadvertently accepted responsibility for the whole debt and now has to clear it? Would the debt agency have been listed as creditors when her ex went bankrupt and would they have been likely to recover any money there?

Unfortunately my Mum is not as good at keeping records as me and so she has destroyed most of the old communication from this agency. I have told her to ask for a full statement of all payments made but they said it is in an archive and they can’t do it. I was going to write a letter for her but until I know what her rights are, I don’t know if it’s worth it yet?

What do you helpful guys recommend? My Mum is too soft and scared of these people to argue with them but I can’t help feeling that they have got more than enough from here already? They phone her every month to try and bully her into increasing the payment and to remind her that if she doesn’t, then she will still be paying this off for years.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance,
DM

momisa

How would your mum feel about changing her home phone number? This would stop the nasty calls straight away and cut out any unnecessary stress.

I also checked this out: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/RightsAndResponsibilities/DG_10028507
"The Act, with some exceptions, gives you the right to find out what information is held about you by organisations. This is known as the 'right of subject access'. On written request, you are entitled to be supplied with a copy of all the information an organisations holds about you.

The organisation may charge a fee for providing the information, up to a maximum of £10 in most instances and up to £50 in the case of manual (i.e. non-electronic) medical records. To see what information is held on you by credit reference agencies costs £2."

I think you should be able to see all the details including the original agreement that they have. I would hope that the agreement states how much money is owed and from there you can work out where she is with payments etc. Bearing in mind that they may have charged her for the late payments.

I'd also be tempted to contact the Financial Services Authority as surely the nasty !!!!!!s will be bound by the code of practice which I'm sure does not include monthly phone calls to increase payments!! This all sounds very fishy to me.

Do you have letters from solicitors stating that she is liable to 50% of the debt - if so I would hope that would also add to your case for closing this debt. However, if you are successful in closing this case put in writing that you want your mums credit file updated stating the account has been settled so as not to affect her credit rating.

Good luck

Cumbrian_Male

Unfortunately joint accounts hold both parties "jointly and severally" liable. This means that they are both liable for the whole debt. As her ex partner went bankrupt he can not be persued for the debt, hence why your mother is paying it.

alwaysonthego_2

As Cumbrian Male says and she has acknowledged the debt so she can't stop paying. If she wants to contest it, she should go to the CAB

RAS

Three things

1. Get you mum to write to them advising them that they will only contact her in writing in future to stop the phone calls. If they continue after that, she reports them to trading Standards and the Financial Ombudsman for haressment.

2. Even if she has been paying, just for the sake of making sure what is going on, demand the CCA and letter of assignment. They may well have them , but if not they have to return what they have paid with interest and compensation added.

3. If you mum does not have the last 6 years' statements, do a Subject Access Request (£10) and then reclaim any charges that they have added over that time. She cannot claim interest though.

DebtMagnet

Thanks all for your advice.

Sorry to be thick but what are the CCA and letter of assignment that she needs to ask for? Would this request be better in writing I guess? If as you say they can't provide them, (can't see her being that lucky), do you mean they will have to pay back all the money?

I seriously doubt that she has any statements from previous years as she doesn't seem to see the benefit in keeping official things (much as I try and teach her otherwise), but I will certainly get a letter together to do a subject access request for her and ask for everything else as well.

Thanks again,
DM

RAS

You need a CCA, cost £1 and a SAR costs £10, both need to be sent recorded delivery. Suggest you send them separately.

Here is weller's letter - cut the last para if it is not appropriate.

Here is the first letter you need to send:-

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose £1 in payment of the statutory fee.

2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities, therefore if I do not receive evidence that I owe your company any monies by 1 June 2007, I will have no hesitation in passing your details to the Office of Fair Trading.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

Regarding your threat that a Doorstep Collector will call the owner of this property is denying you or anybody working on your behalf access onto their estate or grounds in relation to this disputed debt, should you or any agent acting for you attempt to gain access to the estate or its grounds, then you will be ignoring your denial of access and the owner of (enter addres) will take legal steps to sue both you and or your agents for trespass, please also note that having a letterbox on the property gives you or anyone working on your behalf neither implied nor expressed rights to enter the properties boundaries, again any instances of trespass WILL lead the property owner to sue both yourselves or any agents working on your behalf.

DebtMagnet

Thanks for the reply again RAS.

I think I have got my head around it now after reading some of your other helpful posts. I'll post back to let you know of any result we get.

Just out of interest, everybody refers to a CCA, but I can't find what it stands for (even google didn't help me!). Is it the Consumer Credit Agreement??

Thanks again,
DM

DebtMagnet

Hi all again,

Not long after asking these questions above, things happened in my life that sort of took over and so I didn't pursue this matter with my mum. I have now revisited it and am raring to go and try and defeat these vile people.

Anyway I have read loads of threads on CCA's and DCA's etc so now feel like I have an idea what I'm aiming for. I do however have some new information as I have received all the letters that my Mum has from the DCA and so wanted to ask if it was relevant or not:

Firstly the DCA are Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited. A quick search on here makes it very clear the type of low-life outfit we are dealing with but there we go. The main point I wanted to ask though is that the debt is still in her old married name and as she has re-married over 10 years ago, I find it incredible that all letters are still in her old name. She tells me that she has told them on numerous occasions that her name has changed but they just say that it doesn't matter and she is still responsible and refuse to change the name on the account. Now while I think they are out of order for this, I'm sure that legally that won't matter one bit, but as far as you experts are concerned, could she ever argue that the person they are chasing for payment is technically no longer in existence and would their refusal to acknowledge her name change mean anything other than poor service?

I also just want to clarify the fact that the original debt related to an overdraft and as I have read on a few posts recently that you don't need a CCA for an overdraft, would that still be the case if it was passed on to a DCA many years ago?

Mum is really scared of upsetting these people (I say bring it on) but as it is her that is responsible, I just want to be extra careful of crossing the T's and dotting the I's so to speak.

Thanks again in advance,
DM

jamesd

Forget the name change meaning the person is no longer in existence line. That's complete rubbish and they will correctly laugh at it.

If they get any money out of her they have won the lottery. It's not likely with such old debts so if she wants to be rid of it she could mention that a family member is considering lending her say 10% of the debt as full and final settlement, regardless of whether the debt is really hers or not.

DebtMagnet

Thanks,

I figured the name thing was nothing more than an annoying side issue but thanks for the response anyway.

As for your second point, I don't quite understand what you mean. They already have had money from her and she has already repayed around 70% of the total debt over the past 14 years. Are you saying to offer them 10% now rather than going down the CCA request route, or only if they can't produce a CCA?

Just reading again about overdrafts not having a CCA and now don't know if it's even relavant?

Thanks again,
DM