Urgent Advice Please

Dippy51

First time user so hope this is the right place to post. On 28/07 we parked at a London Station car-park operated by Apcoa parking.
The first machine ate the money but did not register so my daughter ( a schoolteacher) and her father the driver went to another machine. money accepted the only thing that dropped was was they put as advised this way up on the dashboard and all rushed for the train. On return had a parking charge notice for non display of a ticket. She wrote on behalf of elderly father the driver to apaco and received a refusal and popla code. She and her father are not the registered owner and keeper of the car. On looking more closely this was a receipt from someone else who paid by credit card. Was the machine faulty if so they are not admitting it. I, as the registered owner is worried sick, i have phoned them, asking if their machine was money up on the day we paid it should be and for cctv of carpark at time we paid. no to the first refered to British transport police for second who is referring us back to ACPOA or company for CCTV unknown. Help as owner what to do.

Nodding_Donkey

Read the newbies thread and appeal to POPLA using the arguments in that thread. Forget what happened, it's irrelevant.

Job jobbed

Dippy51

Thank you Nodding Donkey, I have been trying to get my head around newbies advice to appeal. As the owner registered keeper but not the driver should i use the Parking On Private Land Appeals and Popla Verification Code sent to the daughter of the driver or wait to be contacted as the owner.

MothballsWallet

Remember, OP, mitigation doesn't work with these companies

I think they bought a fire-damaged dictionary that is missing about 60% of the pages

Redx

if the driver received the rejection due to naming themselves then the pcn and everything will be in their name now, so the appeal goes in as driver

if the driver hasnt "outed" themselves then the RK would get all the paperwork meaning the RK would deal with it or would name the driver to absolve themselves

so if the driver was daft enough to name themselves as driver (unless its a hire or lease or company car), then the driver has to deal with it as everything is in their name and its their popla code

just follow post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and appeal to popla, after checking the code is valid, and BEFORE the 28 days deadline expires

as mentioned above, mitigation wont work, neither will "what happened on the day" either

use legal arguments to win this, not platitudes or excuses

Dippy51

Thanks for replies your help is appreciated.
Daughter wrote to Apcoa on behalf of her father who was not named in letter. Daughter was not driver or owner. Her father was not owner. her appeal on was rejected and she was asked to pay or appeal to Popla or if she does nothing monies will be recovered via debt recovery or court action against her. ( sorry I am a bit thick) So As owner do I wait for them to write me or reply to popular on code for daughter stating neither she or I was the driver.

Dee140157

Whichever name and address was used for the appeal will be the one now to use for POPLA. As registered keeper you will not get anything as the driver has effectively been outed by responding to the windscreen ticket.
You are out of the loop and cannot now be contacted as registered keeper.

Your daughter should now use POPLA code and appeal the same way as she did for initial appeal. (In post 3 of newbie thread as already pointed out)

Make sure she drafts a POPLA appeal and you can post on here for checking.

I will stress again what others have said, although you can include details of machine, this WILL NOT win the POPLA appeal. It is the legal points that you need to win. So make sure she reads all this.

Coupon-mad

You can't sit and wait when APCOA have sent a POPLA code - it times out after 28 days so use it!!

The person using it should be the person it was sent to but personally I would also add your name as keeper, so it's signed in two names and explain to POPLA that APCOA sent a POPLA code to a person who was neither the driver nor keeper (as they didn't bother to check who had written to them). As such, as you know that keepers can appeal to POPLA you are appealing as keeper or say you are authorising (Daughter) to appeal on your behalf even though she was not the driver either.

Use a version of a POPLA appeal you will find in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread & adapt it, or search this forum for 'APCOA Station POPLA' to find a thread like yours with a POPLA appeal already written on it. This is nothing to be 'worried sick' about, don't be silly, it's just stupid old APCOA an they are easy peasy to beat at POPLA! But you MUST make sure the appeal goes in from someone authorised to act for you as keeper or with your name on it too stating you are the keeper and as the PPC haven't bothered to establish who was driving (or appealing), and failed to send any Notice to Keeper at all, they've failed to invoke keeper liability and in a station car park the POFA 2012 doesn't apply anyway due to Train Operator byelaws applying instead.

You don't want to fall at the simple hurdle of putting the right name to the appeal. DO NOT NAME THE DRIVER AT ANY POINT.

Dippy51

My daughter has left the letter with meas she is on her honeymoon and will not be back in time so I have to do this with your help please. The driver due to poor health can't deal with it so that's why she wrote. I can see her letter was too nice and polite thus rejected as she did not look to this site first. I will do as you say then post here for further advice. We have no idea of there agreement with first capital connect or signage as we do not live near london.

Coupon-mad

You don't need to have any idea about any signage or FCC contract, it doesn't matter. Just read other APCOA station threads, this is easy. Just search this forum tomorrow when you've had some rest (calm down by the way it's a scam you will beat, not a real fine).

Dippy51

Hopeless as it maybe this is my attempt to draft a popla appeal. Any advice please.

Dear POPLA,

I am the registered keeper & this is my appeal:

POPLA Code:
Vehicle Reg:
PPC: Apcoa
PCN Ref:
Alleged Contravention Date & Time:
Date of PCN:

Dear POPLA Assessor,

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle above and I am appealing against the parking charge above.
On the 28 July 2014 the driver of the above vehicle received a Parking Charge Notice from Apcoa Parking, requiring payment of a charge of £ 85 for an alleged parking contravention, No Valid Ticket.
APCOA sent a POPLA code to a person who was neither the driver nor keeper (as they didn't bother to check who had written to them). The ticket/receipt printed from the machine before returning to a blank screen when the full payment required was put in. It was placed in the windscreen this way up as it stated. We note after returning and seeing the PCN it was not a ticket.
I believe I am not liable for the parking charge on the grounds stated below.
I would ask that all points are taken into consideration

1 ) - Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

2 ) - Lack of signage - no contract with driver

3 ) - Lack of standing/authority from landowner


1) Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

No genuine pre-estimate of loss.
I would contest the parking charge as not being a GPEOL on the following points:

1) There is no loss flowing from this parking event. The correct charge for the period in question, which was paid in full, was the £ 6.40, which was for day parking before 10am. (Besides an additional sum put in the first machine that did not register or return the coinage.

2) The parking contravention charge of £85 is out of all proportion to any potential loss on the part of Apcoa and therefore does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The charge contravenes the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice section 19. APCOA parking must therefore be required to explain their 'charge' by providing POPLA with a detailed financial appraisal, which evidences the genuine pre-estimated amount of loss in this particular car park for this alleged contravention.
3) . The parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged breach in order to be potentially enforceable. Where there is an initial loss directly caused by the presence of a vehicle in breach of the conditions (e.g. loss of revenue from failure to pay a tariff) this loss will be obvious. An initial loss is fundamental to a parking charge and, without it, costs incurred by issuing the parking charge notice cannot be said to have been caused by the driver's alleged breach. This would not represent a loss resulting from a breach of the alleged parking contract and in any case
APCOA cannot include their operational tax-deductible business running costs -for example, costs of signage, staffing and dealing later with the appeals, or hefty write-off costs. I believe APCOA are likely to be paid by their client - so any such payment income must be balanced within the breakdown supply and must be shown in the contract, Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event. The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.
It would normally be for the owner of the land to claim for loss.


2) Lack of signage - no contract with driver
The signage was not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice and was not seen before parking - so there was no valid contract formed between Apcoa and myself or the driver
A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party 'must' have known of it and agreed terms. The driver did not see any sign; there was no consideration/acceptance and no contract agreed between the parties. .


3) Lack of standing/authority from landowner
1) I believe APCOA have no proprietary interest in the land concerned and if they do, should supply Popla with a copy of the contract with the landowner in which authority to pursue outstanding parking charge is granted, as required by the BPA Code of Practice. Apcoa have no legal status to enforce this charge because there is no assignment of rights to pursue PCNs in the courts in neither their own name nor standing to form contracts with drivers themselves.
2) Apcoa do not own this car park and appear (at best) to have a bare license to put signs up and 'ticket' vehicles on site, merely acting as agents for the Train Operator. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that they are entitled or assigned any title/rights to demand money from me. In addition, APCOA Parking Ltd's lack of title in this land means they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss, if that is the basis of their charge. I require APCOA Parking Ltd to demonstrate their legal ownership of the land to POPLA.
3) Due to Railways byelaws, a railway car park is not classed as "relevant land" under the POFA 2012 so there can be no keeper liability.'
Railway land is not "relevant land" as it is already covered by statutory bylaws and so is specifically excluded from "keeper liability" under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. I put the Operator to strict proof otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the Strategic Rail Authority that this land is not already covered by bylaws.