Non payment of unsocial hours on annual leave

deldee

I am public sector worker in large organisation. Pay structure changed in 2004. We should have been paid for unsocial hours whilst on annual leave. This was one of the enticements to change to the scheme. We work 12 shifts cover weekends / nights and public holidays. It was brought to managements attention 2012 we are being paid wrongly. We have only been getting basic pay whilst on annual leave. We think we dropped approx £100 / month per wk off. What are our rights for claiming back? Any information would be appreciated. Unions are involved. Thanks in advance

Spirit_2

deldee wrote: »

I am public sector worker in large organisation. Pay structure changed in 2004. We should have been paid for unsocial hours whilst on annual leave. This was one of the enticements to change to the scheme. We work 12 shifts cover weekends / nights and public holidays. It was brought to managements attention 2012 we are being paid wrongly. We have only been getting basic pay whilst on annual leave. We think we dropped approx £100 / month per wk off. What are our rights for claiming back? Any information would be appreciated. Unions are involved. Thanks in advance

This entitlement is likely to be linked to the Working Time Regulations which were introduced in 1998. Pay during holiday should be based on the average pay of the preceding 3 months (it is a bit more complex - google for details - but that is a rogh rule of thumb)

The average pay during holidays is only due on minimum holidays (28 days) so if you have more generous contractual entitlement you may not get it on the balance.

Your TU should be pursuing your unpaid entitlemet. I would start by asking them to correct it for future holidays and secondly to work out the arrears you are owed.

Your claim could go back to 1998, however there may be a problem with establishing what records existed for much of that time concerning what holiday was taken and when.

deldee

The management came back with % figures of unsocial hours worked. Was not clear at all and could not give figures. The duty rotas have been lost for 3 of the years and they will only go back 6 years. They want people to sign to say happy but wont give any figures. It is large public sector organisation and did not correct this til about 2 months ago. I had already left but had put claim in in 2012 with all other colleagues. Should there be interest also added? thanks again.

getmore4less

If you have kept your pay slips which should include the actual pay and detailed hours then you could work back from those.

Your P60s would give an estimate but not account for any overtime.
Anything over base would be enhanced pay/overtime so you could just use that for the missing pay.

I suspect it may end up with a negotiated settlement based on some guess for the dates if they have no data.

There is clear incompetence in the management/HR as this issue has been known about for years. I know at least one NHS trust that sorted this out years ago.


I can do some calculations to see how close there % might be.
if you can give me the following for a sample year

base pay, actual pay, holiday allowance. estimate of how much was overtime

deldee

getmore4less wrote: »

If you have kept your pay slips which should include the actual pay and detailed hours then you could work back from those.

Your P60s would give an estimate but not account for any overtime.
Anything over base would be enhanced pay/overtime so you could just use that for the missing pay.

I suspect it may end up with a negotiated settlement based on some guess for the dates if they have no data.

There is clear incompetence in the management/HR as this issue has been known about for years. I know at least one NHS trust that sorted this out year


I can do some calculations to see how close there % might be.
if you can give me the following for a sample year

base pay, actual pay, holiday allowance. estimate of how much was overtime

Thanks to you and spirit for your information. It is on the verge of greivance procedure as taken so long, not informing staff and not sorting mess out when first brought to their attention. I have tried to find payslips. I managed to find quite a few. dating back to 2007 but most for 1 year is 10/12 for 2012. Management make you feel as though you are taking money from the sick. That care may suffer. They forget it should have been in our pay as normal all those years ago. I still work with nhs but different management. I now have set rota so no problem with pay. As i have left I don't know that I will be reviewed with my ex-colleagues though i did appeal with them in 2012. I have e-mailed but no clear answer. I haven't been given any paperwork to look at. We are all unsure what to do. I won't sign without the figures. We are down approx £100 every wks holiday and most get 9wks holiday due to long service and public holidays added in. Thanks for all your help. It is very much appreciated.

getmore4less

Let me give you an idea of what I was thinking.

Base pay £20k
9 weeks holiday

lets say a shift working nurse would 20%+ uplift(a few weekends and sundays make that easy but got gross £25k for the year

working weeks on base pay 52 (£20k)
working weeks to get the enhanced 43(£5k)

Average enhanced week is £116

pay short for the year is £1044.

deldee

getmore4less wrote: »

Let me give you an idea of what I was thinking.

Base pay £20k
9 weeks holiday

lets say a shift working nurse would 20%+ uplift(a few weekends and sundays make that easy but got gross £25k for the year

working weeks on base pay 52 (£20k)
working weeks to get the enhanced 43(£5k)

Average enhanced week is £116

pay short for the year is £1044.

Thank you again. Can i qive you an example?
year ending 2012

basic pay 2302 / month = £27624/yr
gross pay ( taken from P60) £32838.50

This does not include unsocial hrs whilst on annual leave as this wasn't given.

So i still am unable to work out what i shouls have been paid.
Sorry i'm a bit thick when it comes to my pay.

i have off duty which shows some months up 11/13 unsocial shifts but some with annual leave with nil to 4 unsocial shifts.

Some people o more unsocial shifts than others due to their preference normally. I would say i normally did more unsocial hours but not a set rota.

thanks again.

deldee

deldee wrote: »

Thank you again. Can i qive you an example?
year ending 2012

basic pay 2302 / month = £27624/yr
gross pay ( taken from P60) £32838.50

This does not include unsocial hrs whilst on annual leave as this wasn't given.

So i still am unable to work out what i shouls have been paid.
Sorry i'm a bit thick when it comes to my pay.

i have off duty which shows some months up 11/13 unsocial shifts but some with annual leave with nil to 4 unsocial shifts.

Some people o more unsocial shifts than others due to their preference normally. I would say i normally did more unsocial hours but not a set rota.

thanks again.

oh i think i get you!. so difference for year is for 2012 £5214 43 wks enhance but 9 wks not as on hilday.

so that makes £121 / month x 12 months = £1455 due for that 2012.

I get it now! thank you so much. It makes sense!! x

ohreally

Since you don't inform of the organisation, I can only guess. This may have little to do with a change in 2004, as enhancements while on A/L and sick leave were applicable back through the 60's and 70's.
However there were limitations, enhancements were not paid ad infinitum. Have you already benefited from enhancements while on al this year .


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deldee

ohreally wrote: »

Since you don't inform of the organisation, I can only guess. This may have little to do with a change in 2004, as enhancements while on A/L and sick leave were applicable back through the 60's and 70's.
However there were limitations, enhancements were not paid ad infinitum. Have you already benefited from enhancements while on al this year .


Posted from iPhone.

I have changed jobs within organisation but have a rota so not a problem. From what i can gather from my ex-colleagues they have only within the last 2-3 months been paid unsocial hrs whilst on annual leave but i think they are saying you should only be paid 5- 6 unsocial shifts in a month. they have given them % that nobody understands and have no idea what figure this would be. As i say i appealed with my ex-colleagues in dec 2012. It has taken this long to get them to listen. It has been a massive mistake which will cost a huge amount to correct. thanks for your time.

getmore4less

I will have to check the actual rules but from what I remeber last time I looked.

WTD which defines holiday pay refers back to the Employment act which defines a "weeks pay"

It is complicated in that there are a few ways to do it that give slightly different answers and diffent places have made up their own rules and the .gov in trying to simplify gets it wrong for some combination of hours and pay..

The basic premise is that if you work variable hours and/or get paid different rates then the holiday pay should reflect that.

As contractual hours are usualy fixed then we are just dealing with the variable hour rate and the employemnt act averages over the previous weeks where there was pay.

There should not be a limit on the number of enhancedments.

Eg if a NHS worker worked 1 day a week and always did Sunday which is an enhanced 0.6 rate then ALL the holiday should be at that rate same for someone on nights 0.3 enhanced rate then all the holiday should be at that rate.
(the enhanced rates may be slightly different they are from memory)

Where there are no detailed records the easiest way to do it is to average over the year and it will be reasonable adjustment.

If an offer was close(10%) to this I would just accept and get the money and move on if less then a counter proposal is needed.