Giving out UTR number

RockPaperScissors

Morning all!

Hoping some of you might have some suggestions for my OH.

He has been self employed for several years subcontracting with the same company for the entire time. "Technically" speaking he is actually sub-contracting and his "boss" is the contractor of the main company (please let me know if that doesn't make sense - essentially he is the third in the chain of company > boss > OH)

The company recently asked for photocopies of his passport and proof of address which we gave them as we didn't have any objections to photocopies. Now they are asking him for his UTR. When we spoke to HMRC and initially set him up as self employed they informed us over the phone that he should never give his UTR out to anyone as it is obviously his own unique reference. Does anyone know if this is the case?

They are an awful company anyway who flout employment law in terms of what constitutes an "employee" and insist on calling everyone self-employed so they don't have to pay their tax, give them holidays, sick pay etc. but he really needs to keep this job as we are expecting out first child.

They have been known to refuse to allow people to work if they don't provide them with what they want so whilst we're concerned about giving his UTR out to them we know they may say that he can't come in again until he gives it to them.

If it's not an issue handing out UTR's we will do so - just hoping someone has some further knowledge of this?

Thank you

agrinnall

I wouldn't give it to them, they have no need to know it. The whole set up sounds fishy to me, but as they are not paying him directly either as an employee or through a contract with the company there's no need for them to know any of his information, his business relationship is with 'the boss' not the company.

I would strongly recommend looking for another job, I can only see this one ending in tears at some point.

kleapatra

In my last place I worked we wouldn't pay ANY self employed people unless they provided their UTR number on their invoices to prove that they were 'legitimately' self employed. I can't think of anything bad someone could do using a UTR number off the top of my head..............

RockPaperScissors

@agrinnall Thank you for your reply - echoes my thoughts on handing it over.

Agreed he needs a new job ASAP. He has been trying but as he works in forestry there are very rarely any jobs available and as a non-driver (trying to sort this currently) he is even more limited due to rural locations.

@kleapatra - Thank you - Yes I couldn't think of much other is is part of the security process for calling HMRC about personal details.

Interesting to hear that you also had to provide it, but were you invoicing the company directly? My partner invoices his boss and not the company so I could see why it would need to be shown to his boss because he is the one that would need to check this but the company have no knowledge over how much my OH gets paid - they just receive one invoice from my OH boss and that's a total contracted figure that he decides on.

tomterm8

RockPaperScissors wrote: »

If it's not an issue handing out UTR's we will do so - just hoping someone has some further knowledge of this?

Thank you

They have no way to confirm whether the UTR is the correct one.

Simply give them a convincing looking UTR and f**k them. Alternative, transpose a few of the numbers and say "oops" if necessary.

Only time I'd give someone else my UTR is if I was a construction worker where it actually is a legitimate request.

phill99

I have 16 guys working for me on sub contract. If I don't have their UTR they don't get paid. I need to verify that they are set up for self employment and deduct tax from them.

comeandgo

No UTR number, no payment. How can the main contractor know if it's 20% or 30% or pay gross unless they have this number?

agrinnall

Ok, so obviously it is a legitimate request in some circumstances, but I'm puzzled to how a UTR proves self employment, I have one but I'm not self employed, and my mum has one in a completely different format to mine, and she's a pensioner.

RockPaperScissors

comeandgo wrote: »

No UTR number, no payment. How can the main contractor know if it's 20% or 30% or pay gross unless they have this number?

I thought this was only for CIS scheme? Which I thought was for those that work in the construction industry?

I might be wrong though as that's just what I've researched today

RockPaperScissors

blondebubbles wrote: »

UTR doesn't prove self employment but proves someone is registered for self assessment.

All UTRs are the same format as they are all 10 digit numbers.

OP - employers and contractors are frequently asked by HMRC to confirm the details of the staff they have as "self employed". This may be the reason why they are asking for the UTR.

I don't see why there is an issues with providing it as if it was an employer you would give them your NINO.

Thank you blondebubbles!

Thanks for that info. The only issue was that he isn't contracted by this company and to be honest they are incredibly unscrupulous and dodgy in any event so after HMRC told us not to give it to anyone we wanted to check first before handing it over. They have lost several peoples driving licenses/passports on more than one occasion so I don't think they have much care for sensitive information (as well as a disregard for data protection) and as he is contracted by his boss, who is contracted by them, there didn't seem to be any valid reason that they would need his UTR considering he never deals with them direct.

tomterm8

agrinnall wrote: »

Ok, so obviously it is a legitimate request in some circumstances, but I'm puzzled to how a UTR proves self employment,

It doesn't.

blondebubbles wrote: »

I don't see why there is an issues with providing it as if it was an employer you would give them your NINO.

There's just no need for a company ( other than a construction company) to have a UTR, and it's your username for your HMRC account. So, it provides half the info you need to access some very sensitive information.