Hi

Gazd

Hi guys just joined at this ridiculous hour!

I need someone to steer me in the right direction although I know I probably won't get a reply until later today unless your a night owl. With the new rules coming into place with the child maintenance service how do they go about obtaining your income? its always been a case of them asking me for payslips which I have always provided no problem. My concern is that from what I have read about this new setup they seem to keep on pointing towards obtaining the income info from the hmrc although isn't that the way they should be doing it anyway?

My present situation is probably not one to be patted on the back for although when you pay maintenance every month and the parent with care doesn't let you see your child it does take it's toll.

I have always provided payslips to the CSA for my maintenance payments and never had an issue it is if they have never bothered to get the info from the hmrc. Reason why I say this is because I have had a second part time job for sometime and have never been questioned on it as I have never told them. In my mind why should I be paying even more maintenance when I don't even have access to my child plus I get emergency taxed.

Anyway my question is will things change now from the CSA to the csm as in obtaining my income details? Don't get me wrong I know to some of you fellow members reading this you will not be impressed with me but when you don't get to see your child for years on end just because she can it does change you.

Obviously if they would be able to view the other income then it would make sense for me to knock it on the head. Also my worry I suppose is even if they would see my income via the hmrc and I accepted the maintenance would increase.... Would they then ask for back payments etc...? If they wouldn't then I may even be tempted to keep the second job on and start paying the extra..

Ideally I would like things to stay as they were even with the cms in place and I can continue providing the payslips and just pay maintenance based on that. But obviously I am concerned which is why I am on here bending your ears!

Regards the second job it is a zero hour contract position but I do regular extra work from week to week (not sure if that changes anything being a zero hour contract?)

Again please don't be to nasty.... trust me if I was seeing my child from week to week then I would never been In this situation where I am doing a extra job on the side. Especially when I haven't done anything wrong

Thanks

PreludeForTimeFeelers

Do you currently have a case open with the CSA? If so then this case will stay open for at least another year.

If/when you have a case open with CMS, their first port of call for income details is no longer the paying parent or the employer, it's HMRC. They press a button and see what you earned in the last tax year, then use this for the child maintenance assessment.

HoneyNutLoop

Carrying on from Prelude's answer:
So yes, when the time comes, they will instantly see your income from your second job.

Also, they look at the last full tax year supplied by HMRC. I.e. If you're CSA case was closed in July 2016, and your ex applied to CMS, they may use your 2015/16 tax year info, or if it wasn't available yet in the relevant HMRC database that they source from, your 2014/15 tax year info.

In order for you to get them to use your current income based on payslips, you would have to prove your current income was at least 25% less than what they've sourced from HMRC. If it hasn't changed by that amount, they will continue using the HMRC info. What that means is, even if you do genuinely give up the second job at that time, if it doesn't represent 25% of your gross income, you will still continue paying maintenance as though you still had it, until your annual review date. At annual review, they again source the most recent tax year info from HMRC and set a new calculation for the forthcoming year.

On the backdating side, if in the past they have specifically asked you if you have a second job, or if you have any other form of income and you lied and said no, you've already opened yourself up to potential backdating. There is no time limit for them to go back and recalculate what was due if someone has actively misrepresented their circumstances. This applies even if you now give up the job. Whether they would, is another question.

If they've never asked you about second jobs or other sources of income, and you simply haven't volunteered reporting this change in circumstances, then that is not misrepresentation. In which case, they will only take account of the info from when they are told about it - there is no grounds for backdating in this situation.

While you may like things to stay as they are, one of the many reasons the design of the scheme has changed is to prevent people doing what you have been doing. Things aren't going to stay the same, and now is the advance warning period for people to adjust to that idea.

Gazd

Morning thanks for your replies and not judging.

Yes I have a case open with the CSA at the moment it was opened in 2005. When you say it will be open for at least another year do you mean a full tax year possibly so maybe not until the start of April 2015 or even April 2016?

Prelude when you say the hmrc can 'press a button' and see what I earned in the last tax year and use that figure for assessment would they then see the other jobs on the same p60 then or would it just show differently on their system? I take it even though the extra job is emergency taxed they would still see it via my national insurance number?

Honeynutloop does my ex instantly have the right to apply to the cms then... it's not an automatic thing they do whether she did apply off her own back or not? She wouldn't accept direct payments from me as I have asked her before and she doesn't want to know. I don't think it is right though with the new 20% fee especially when I have always wanted to pay direct to her.

Regards being able to show it would be more than 25% difference that would be straight forward as it accounts to maybe 40%. So if for example I carried on as I was until the end of this tax year and had break from the extra job and at some point in 2015 or even 2016 they did a check on the system and said I was earning a much higher amount previously.... I could just show them a recent payslip to prove the difference of over 25%? or how would I prove it and make it stick so to speak.

As far as the backdating goes or whether I have misrepresented myself or not... Since I have been paying my csa paymemts they have pretty much every year either just renewed the calculation and carried on or asked for the last 3 months payslips if I remember rightly. I think over the years they have written to me maybe twice asking for a recalculation enquiring whether my circumstances have changed and I have just supplied payslips and its stayed the same. They have never come out directly and said we think you have another job and for me to accept or decline that statememt..... I think they only did that those two times as well as my ex was just trying to !!!! me off. So based on that where would I stand do you think regarding misrepresentation??

To summarise what would you guys recommend dong moving forward???

I suppose the aim would be now is damage limitation. My part time job with the one company started in September last year which is on a 24 hour contract while the other part time job I have is a zero hour contract and started in Feb this year. My aim has always been to knock the 24 hour contract second job on the head as I have never liked it and just stick with the zero hour contract job as its a better company etc and I also like the thought of being able to refuse shifts from time to time due to it being a zero hour contract.

Would I be better leaving the 24 hour week job now and maybe carrying on with the job I started in Feb and notifying the CSA of the job maybe in august so let things go for a few months having left the 24 houra week job?..... or what would be best??

My aim naturally is not to get battered for previous years and try to come out clean In a way in which I don't get hammered and skint.... But keep the other job and accept having to pay a few pound extra a month.

Can someone please advise on the above questions and advise on what would be the best way moving forward?

HoneyNutLoop

Gazd wrote: »

Morning thanks for your replies and not judging.

Yes I have a case open with the CSA at the moment it was opened in 2005. When you say it will be open for at least another year do you mean a full tax year possibly so maybe not until the start of April 2015 or even April 2016?

Case closure is not linked to tax years, but yes, it's likely your existing case will keep running for at least another year. They are aiming to close all existing 2003 and 1993 scheme cases between now and 31 December 2017. They are grouping cases into 5 segments to broadly determine the order of closure. Voluntarily compliant cases are segment number 4, so will be towards the end of the timetable, although not the last of the cases.

Prelude when you say the hmrc can 'press a button' and see what I earned in the last tax year and use that figure for assessment would they then see the other jobs on the same p60 then or would it just show differently on their system? I take it even though the extra job is emergency taxed they would still see it via my national insurance number?

They will get details of all earned income for that tax year, so first jobs, second jobs, pension income, self-employment, etc. They will get it all in that one request. Taxation doesn't impact 2012 scheme, as it is based on grtoss taxable income, less pension contributions.

Honeynutloop does my ex instantly have the right to apply to the cms then... it's not an automatic thing they do whether she did apply off her own back or not? She wouldn't accept direct payments from me as I have asked her before and she doesn't want to know. I don't think it is right though with the new 20% fee especially when I have always wanted to pay direct to her.

You will both get a letter at least 6 months in advance of the existing case being closed. Anytime from that point on, you or your ex could apply to CMS. If an application is made within the 6 month notice period, there will be no break between the CSA case closing at the end of the 6 month notice poeriod and the CMS case opening. If no application is made, the CSA case will simply close at the end of the notice period, and nothing more would happen. If your ex wants to apply, she would have to pay a £20 application fee. When charging is brought in for 2012 cases later this year, paying parents will be able to choose direct pay without the receiving parents consent, so long as CMS are satisfied they are likely to pay, I.e. already have a well established voluntary payment history. This is so that one parent cannot force charging on the other parent.

Regards being able to show it would be more than 25% difference that would be straight forward as it accounts to maybe 40%. So if for example I carried on as I was until the end of this tax year and had break from the extra job and at some point in 2015 or even 2016 they did a check on the system and said I was earning a much higher amount previously.... I could just show them a recent payslip to prove the difference of over 25%? or how would I prove it and make it stick so to speak.

I have not seen much published that specifies exactly what evidence CMS would want to see but it is likely to be more than one payslip.

Additionally, if you are employed, rather than self-employed and your CMS calculation is based upon current income rather than HMRC historic income, you are legally obliged to tell them about an increase in income of more than 25%.

They have review systems in place to periodically review all current income calculations. So, for example, if you were thinking of keeping the second job, but sending in payslips for only the first job, in the hopes of being moved onto current income to keep your status quo, the system is specifically designed to have failsafes to catch this. They may not notice straight away, but they will pick it up at either the annual review or periodic current income check, and they will backdate the corrected calculation to include the second income, as you have said it represents more than 25% of your total income.

As far as the backdating goes or whether I have misrepresented myself or not... Since I have been paying my csa paymemts they have pretty much every year either just renewed the calculation and carried on or asked for the last 3 months payslips if I remember rightly. I think over the years they have written to me maybe twice asking for a recalculation enquiring whether my circumstances have changed and I have just supplied payslips and its stayed the same. They have never come out directly and said we think you have another job and for me to accept or decline that statememt..... I think they only did that those two times as well as my ex was just trying to !!!! me off. So based on that where would I stand do you think regarding misrepresentation??

You say that you started the second job in February. So, since February, what specific questions have they asked you? It doesn't have to be in writing, it could have been over the phone. If in their letter they said "Please send us your April and May wage slips for Job A", and that's what you sent, there would be no misrepresentation. If they said something more vague " Please send us evidence of your income for April and May" and you only sent evidence of some of your income, that might be considered misrepresentation. They don't have to have come out and said "do you have job B". If they said, for example " is this your only source of income" and you said yes, that would be misrepresentation.

To summarise what would you guys recommend dong moving forward???

I would recommend coming clean and getting my calculation to reflect my current circumstances, but I don't think that's what you want to do. You said in your first post that you have done nothing wrong, but I'm not sure that's strictly accurate. You may have done nothing wrong, but depending what has been asked and answered, you may have.

I suppose the aim would be now is damage limitation. My part time job with the one company started in September last year which is on a 24 hour contract while the other part time job I have is a zero hour contract and started in Feb this year. My aim has always been to knock the 24 hour contract second job on the head as I have never liked it and just stick with the zero hour contract job as its a better company etc and I also like the thought of being able to refuse shifts from time to time due to it being a zero hour contract.


Would I be better leaving the 24 hour week job now and maybe carrying on with the job I started in Feb and notifying the CSA of the job maybe in august so let things go for a few months having left the 24 houra week job?..... or what would be best??

If you end up sending them payslips from your zero hour job, the year to date taxable pay will almost certainly show them you've been working there longer than you said. Plus, they could always call your employer and ask them to confirm your start date. They normally want that info when recording a new employer. What happens next depends on what has previously been asked and answered.

My aim naturally is not to get battered for previous years and try to come out clean In a way in which I don't get hammered and skint.... But keep the other job and accept having to pay a few pound extra a month.

If you only started the second job in February, they'd have no cause to relook at the last few years. Unless you've previously had other second jobs that you also didn't disclose? As mentioned before, this is an advance warning period for you to get used to the idea that you will be paying child maintenance on all your income, not just the parts you choose to disclose. Your choice now is whether or not you want to keep the second job knowing you will be paying child maintenance from it in the not too distant future?

Can someone please advise on the above questions and advise on what would be the best way moving forward?

Responses in blue above.

Gazd

Thanks for your help again honeynut.

I started the part time job I aim to keep in Feb just gone. I had my letter in post just after from CSA confirming my years payments again just after if I remember correctly. I did ring them about 1-2 months ago to tell them of a change of address but that was relatively painless.

Just so I am correct in moving forward should I therefore leave my other part time job which I have been meaning to do since Feb/March maybe leave it 2 months to get my p45/6 and then ring the CSA and say about the zero hour job? In doing this if they asked me when I started the job should I tell them Feb or say within the past 1-2 months?

My situation just to be a bit more clear about things is that I have been off on long term sick with my main job since October last year and been on ssp since Jan and have only now managed to return to work. Therefore having the other 2 part time jobs have helped me afford what I would have normally afforded before. It is a completly different job skill and has not affected the reason why I was off ill with the main job hence I was able to carry on and also keep on paying my CSA payments.

If I was to say since Feb and they question why I have not told them before what do you recommend being the best answer not to dig myself hole? maybe explain the above? (Not mentioning about the other part time job of course, the one I shall now leave)...... or even fall back on it being a zero hour contract?

On reflection I know that I haven't been completely honest but then I feel I have had my reasons and also looking forward I think the main thing now is that I am wanting to go straight..... despite me wanting but not being allowed to see my kid.

Regards your last comment honeynut about 'unless you've had previous second jobs that you didn't disclose?'...... yes is the answer to that I have had various second part time jobs over the years that I haven't disclosed but obviously left a while ago. I. would hope in deciding to ring them up and inform them of the second job I started since Feb this year that everything would then be legit moving forward with no reason to bring up the past?

Thanks again for your help with all this......