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Green Party and the Citizens' Income

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Comments

  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Another policy detached from reality. The Western world cannot afford to live above it's means for ever. As always the question is who pays?
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    DWP's admin costs were £5.8 billion in 2012 ....

    I believe HMRC admin costs are of the same order; perhaps a little less. Even if you were to take the wildest most optomistic view of the potential cost savings, you'd be hard put to get to a figure that would even approach a penny on the basic rate.
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    Another policy detached from reality. The Western world cannot afford to live above it's means for ever. As always the question is who pays?

    It's not completely detached from reality. I can recall some Thatcherite MP or other putting it forward as an option back in the 1980s. But they did at least recognise the extra costs involved and put forward some suggestions for meeting them. No more foreign aid, cancelling all grants to the arts etc.

    The problem with the Green Party policy is the problem with almost all Green Party policies. It's not actually a policy; it's a statement of intent.
  • onlyroz
    onlyroz Posts: 17,661 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 19 May 2014 at 2:02PM
    This site suggests a citizens' income of £2.7k for children, £3.4k for adults and £6.9k for pensioners:

    http://www.citizensincome.org/FAQs.htm

    They would retain housing benefit but scrap most other benefits. The tax structure would broadly remain the same, but the personal allowance would be scrapped. So a family of four would get £12.2k to live on, plus whatever they earned on top.

    They estimate that the costs of administrating the system would be similar to the costs of administrating the current child benefit system.
  • Graham_Devon
    Graham_Devon Posts: 58,560 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 19 May 2014 at 2:11PM
    I quite like the idea when looked at in terms of ease. I.e one payment to everyone. Would save millions at a guess on all the calculations being made for everyone's circumstances at the moment.

    The amount of time and money spent on running the tax credits system, for example, must be colossal.

    On the other hand, it would seem to make little difference to everyone not actually claiming anything. What you get given as a citizens income is taken in tax the other end.

    Quite like the idea of it though. Seems sensible. Would need a credible set of calculations to show the actual numbers add up though. Be nice to see the end of stupid systems such as winter fuel allowance, bus passes claimed by those who never use them, Christmas bonuses etc and one simple payment to all.
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    housing benefit isn't included so how does that work?

    how many people are on HB?

    given pensioners, disabled and HB aren't included, one doesn't see such a massive reduction in admin
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    onlyroz wrote: »
    This site suggests a citizens' income of £2.7k for children, ...

    Child benefit currently costs around £11 billion.

    Replacing that with a citizens' income of £2.7k for each child would cost around £30 billion; that's an extra £19 billion, or another 4p on the basic rate.

    Carry on like that, and pretty soon you end up with a basic rate of 50% or more.
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    I quite like the idea when looked at in terms of ease. I.e one payment to everyone. .....

    Oh, I quite like the idea. Used to be quite enthusiastic about it myself at one time. The trouble is that once you do the arithmetic, the enthusiasm wanes. :)
  • GeorgeHowell
    GeorgeHowell Posts: 2,739 Forumite
    If that's their policy -- and is it really ? not just a wind up ? -- then at least they're honest about it.

    The notion that work is an optional extra and that anyone who declines it has a God-given right to be kept afloat by everyone else is a view held by large swathes of the Labour Party (and LibDems). But they dare not be open about it because, unilike the Greens, they are trying to win elections.
    No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.

    The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

    Margaret Thatcher
  • Graham_Devon
    Graham_Devon Posts: 58,560 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 19 May 2014 at 3:06PM
    antrobus wrote: »
    Child benefit currently costs around £11 billion.

    Replacing that with a citizens' income of £2.7k for each child would cost around £30 billion; that's an extra £19 billion, or another 4p on the basic rate.

    Carry on like that, and pretty soon you end up with a basic rate of 50% or more.

    Thing is though, a lot of those taking child benefit will also be taking tax credits, either working or none working. These tax credits would cease under the citizens payment.

    It's therefore an unfair calculation.
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