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First Capital Connect
RailwayPassenger
Posts: 2 Newbie
I am stunned by a trip to London recently which is now resulting in a £57.57 demand from FCC or criminal conviction.
Travelling on the London Underground to Kentish Town and then walking up the escalator onto the FCC Kentish Town station, there is a tiny passage way, which last year had two poorly-sited oyster machines which were, to quote LU staff, "confusing passengers". This Oyster machine has since been moved and replaced with a larger machine sited so that is clearly now on the railway property.
My associate stopped and asked LU how to travel to Radlett, as the FCC station entrance was unmanned and no signage existed, nor did we see any information of any kind on conditions of carriage or how to travel on the railway. The LU staff told us to use our oysters to Radlett and on arrival at this deserted station, there were three ticket inspectors waiting.
One ticket inspector was very tall, thin and long-haired and slouched over the banister during the entire incident. The ticket inspector that approached me, read my oyster and told me that I was £3.50 over on my oyster, which had £12 on it, which had been prepared by another associate for me for the journey to Radlett, the oyster card was loaned for the journey to Radlett. I immediately attempted to hand him £5. He said I must give him £20 or take a penalty which would result in prosecution and criminal records if not paid subsequently. He did not state that I could pay the excess and dispute the penalty and he would not hear about any issues at Kentish Town.
As he was being aggressive, I tried to speak with other staff, but he began shouting as well and putting his arm out and I found this odd too, I walked away to find a police officer or station staff member, but this is now being used as evidence that I "refused to pay him and walked away".
The ticket inspector then got physical with arms outstretched he tried to hem me in and then threatened to knock me over, there was contact, but no injury to me. At this point he was shouting loudly "give me £20 now or I will call the police".
I then stood my ground and squared up to him and asked him to call the police. He then went for my pocket, attempting to lift the lip of my pocket and look inside. I jumped back, which attracted the attention of others and he recomposed himself and began shouting at me to give an address, I gave my address and left.
I then contacted face to face two BTP officers who gave me a card with a freephone number and within 24 hours I called BTP, but was told although violence was recognised, no damage occured and therefore I need to contact FCC directly.
I moved house before any letter arrived and my mail was forwarded to me 3 months late, so the first I knew about this was when bailiffs contacted me and the case had been heard in my absence.
I gave a statutory declaration and attended the hearing to re-open and although the clerk advised the court to not re-open, the magistrates decided to re-open the case.
Since then I have been told to report the violent or aggressive behaviour and breach of byelaws to FCC directly, both by magistrates and police. I tried to do it this morning, but was told by Customer Relations to speak to "Market Research", so I have still not been able to report the staff's behaviour or actions to any person in FCC yet, or had any response from FCC.
The prosecutor says that he will settle for £57.57, but I fail to see how I am liable for anything more than £7.57.
The prosecutor states via phone that they do not need to advertise conditions or carriage and will not explain why it's £57.57 not £7.57 other than to complain about "time". This is however a reduction from the £350 roughly it was.
I feel almost as if I have been tricked into travelling using my oyster and that 3 inspectors were waiting for me. If that is not the case, I feel I have been tricked into swiping the wrong machine, which they have since removed and relocated. If that is not the case, I feel a station entrance should have some staff or some way for passengers to be able to check whether it is an oyster job or not.
Should I fight this case or accept that I've lost over £150 including my personal costs?
I am also wondering how I can report the enforcement team's aggressive or violent behaviour, because FCC will not give me a name or job title to write to, even a department other than "market research" and the police don't see anything criminal about a man in uniform, shouting, pushing, looking in people's pockets and violating rule 8.2 of the PF Policy at the same time.
They clearly have a tactic of breaching byelaw and aggressive behaviour in order to make passenger's suspicious or walk away.
I've read on other forums how they did this to a pregnant woman and I myself could be classed as a vulnerable person, I have been receiving support from my local council. On the day of the incident, I was wearing a suit and the inspector's behaviour was odd, insistent he confirmed for himself whether there was £20 cash in my pocket or not, so I don't rule out the possibility that LU staff collude to misinform passengers when they know where the FCC team will be.
The letter from FCC does state a charge, but talks about Fraud. The first court letter states "not having a ticket". The third letter states "entering a train without a ticket", implying they read my statutory declaration and decided to change the charge.
Travelling on the London Underground to Kentish Town and then walking up the escalator onto the FCC Kentish Town station, there is a tiny passage way, which last year had two poorly-sited oyster machines which were, to quote LU staff, "confusing passengers". This Oyster machine has since been moved and replaced with a larger machine sited so that is clearly now on the railway property.
My associate stopped and asked LU how to travel to Radlett, as the FCC station entrance was unmanned and no signage existed, nor did we see any information of any kind on conditions of carriage or how to travel on the railway. The LU staff told us to use our oysters to Radlett and on arrival at this deserted station, there were three ticket inspectors waiting.
One ticket inspector was very tall, thin and long-haired and slouched over the banister during the entire incident. The ticket inspector that approached me, read my oyster and told me that I was £3.50 over on my oyster, which had £12 on it, which had been prepared by another associate for me for the journey to Radlett, the oyster card was loaned for the journey to Radlett. I immediately attempted to hand him £5. He said I must give him £20 or take a penalty which would result in prosecution and criminal records if not paid subsequently. He did not state that I could pay the excess and dispute the penalty and he would not hear about any issues at Kentish Town.
As he was being aggressive, I tried to speak with other staff, but he began shouting as well and putting his arm out and I found this odd too, I walked away to find a police officer or station staff member, but this is now being used as evidence that I "refused to pay him and walked away".
The ticket inspector then got physical with arms outstretched he tried to hem me in and then threatened to knock me over, there was contact, but no injury to me. At this point he was shouting loudly "give me £20 now or I will call the police".
I then stood my ground and squared up to him and asked him to call the police. He then went for my pocket, attempting to lift the lip of my pocket and look inside. I jumped back, which attracted the attention of others and he recomposed himself and began shouting at me to give an address, I gave my address and left.
I then contacted face to face two BTP officers who gave me a card with a freephone number and within 24 hours I called BTP, but was told although violence was recognised, no damage occured and therefore I need to contact FCC directly.
I moved house before any letter arrived and my mail was forwarded to me 3 months late, so the first I knew about this was when bailiffs contacted me and the case had been heard in my absence.
I gave a statutory declaration and attended the hearing to re-open and although the clerk advised the court to not re-open, the magistrates decided to re-open the case.
Since then I have been told to report the violent or aggressive behaviour and breach of byelaws to FCC directly, both by magistrates and police. I tried to do it this morning, but was told by Customer Relations to speak to "Market Research", so I have still not been able to report the staff's behaviour or actions to any person in FCC yet, or had any response from FCC.
The prosecutor says that he will settle for £57.57, but I fail to see how I am liable for anything more than £7.57.
The prosecutor states via phone that they do not need to advertise conditions or carriage and will not explain why it's £57.57 not £7.57 other than to complain about "time". This is however a reduction from the £350 roughly it was.
I feel almost as if I have been tricked into travelling using my oyster and that 3 inspectors were waiting for me. If that is not the case, I feel I have been tricked into swiping the wrong machine, which they have since removed and relocated. If that is not the case, I feel a station entrance should have some staff or some way for passengers to be able to check whether it is an oyster job or not.
Should I fight this case or accept that I've lost over £150 including my personal costs?
I am also wondering how I can report the enforcement team's aggressive or violent behaviour, because FCC will not give me a name or job title to write to, even a department other than "market research" and the police don't see anything criminal about a man in uniform, shouting, pushing, looking in people's pockets and violating rule 8.2 of the PF Policy at the same time.
They clearly have a tactic of breaching byelaw and aggressive behaviour in order to make passenger's suspicious or walk away.
I've read on other forums how they did this to a pregnant woman and I myself could be classed as a vulnerable person, I have been receiving support from my local council. On the day of the incident, I was wearing a suit and the inspector's behaviour was odd, insistent he confirmed for himself whether there was £20 cash in my pocket or not, so I don't rule out the possibility that LU staff collude to misinform passengers when they know where the FCC team will be.
The letter from FCC does state a charge, but talks about Fraud. The first court letter states "not having a ticket". The third letter states "entering a train without a ticket", implying they read my statutory declaration and decided to change the charge.
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Comments
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You might want to post your saga here:
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Wow. That's terrible advice. However, sadly it's your word against theirs.RailwayPassenger wrote: »My associate stopped and asked LU how to travel to Radlett, as the FCC station entrance was unmanned and no signage existed, nor did we see any information of any kind on conditions of carriage or how to travel on the railway. The LU staff told us to use our oysters to Radlett and on arrival at this deserted station, there were three ticket inspectors waiting.
I wouldn't mention stuff like that, it's not going to help. Yes some RPIs behave inappropriately but it's not going to help you in this sort of case.RailwayPassenger wrote: »One ticket inspector was very tall, thin and long-haired and slouched over the banister during the entire incident.
In order to provide advice, I'd need to see a screenshot of the journey history, which you can get from Oyster Online.RailwayPassenger wrote: »The ticket inspector that approached me, read my oyster and told me that I was £3.50 over on my oyster, which had £12 on it, which had been prepared by another associate for me for the journey to Radlett, the oyster card was loaned for the journey to Radlett.
If you don't have an Oyster Online account, you'll need to get a printout from a station and take a photo/scan of it and upload it as an attachment here. I am unsure if this forum allows attachments from new members. If it does not, you may need to post on another forum (which Wealdroam has helpfully linked to; but MSE rules prevent me linking to)
Without seeing the Oyster statement, I cannot comment on that.
Yes, this is not uncommon, however they are not obliged to issue a Penalty Fare. Although they cannot demand you pay the entire PF, they can get away with insisting on it OR not issuing it and instead reporting you for prosecution.RailwayPassenger wrote: »I immediately attempted to hand him £5. He said I must give him £20 or take a penalty which would result in prosecution and criminal records if not paid subsequently. He did not state that I could pay the excess and dispute the penalty and he would not hear about any issues at Kentish Town.
It's sharp practice, I don't like it, but there's very little - if anything - we can do to stop it. They hold all the cards!
You might need to seek the advice of a solicitor, in that case.RailwayPassenger wrote: »As he was being aggressive, I tried to speak with other staff, but he began shouting as well and putting his arm out and I found this odd too, I walked away to find a police officer or station staff member, but this is now being used as evidence that I "refused to pay him and walked away".
This sort of behaviour does not surprise me, but it won't get you out of the mess, and your (understandable, but ill-advised) reactions to it will just make it worse.
If the incident is covered by CCTV and/or if you have a recording of it, then make a complaint to the police.RailwayPassenger wrote: »The ticket inspector then got physical with arms outstretched he tried to hem me in and then threatened to knock me over, there was contact, but no injury to me. At this point he was shouting loudly "give me £20 now or I will call the police".
If you have a witness, you could also try to make a complaint, but if the RPI has witnesses too who will back him up, then it's a case of your word against his!
If you want to make a complaint, contact the police now and make the complaint. Good luck, and ensure you have plenty of time to allocate to this matter.RailwayPassenger wrote: »I then stood my ground and squared up to him and asked him to call the police. He then went for my pocket, attempting to lift the lip of my pocket and look inside. I jumped back, which attracted the attention of others and he recomposed himself and began shouting at me to give an address, I gave my address and left.
I then contacted face to face two BTP officers who gave me a card with a freephone number and within 24 hours I called BTP, but was told although violence was recognised, no damage occured and therefore I need to contact FCC directly.
Seek the advice of a solicitor - urgently - if bailiffs are still after your stuff.RailwayPassenger wrote: »I moved house before any letter arrived and my mail was forwarded to me 3 months late, so the first I knew about this was when bailiffs contacted me and the case had been heard in my absence.
I gave a statutory declaration and attended the hearing to re-open and although the clerk advised the court to not re-open, the magistrates decided to re-open the case.
That does not sound like the right department to me!RailwayPassenger wrote: »Since then I have been told to report the violent or aggressive behaviour and breach of byelaws to FCC directly, both by magistrates and police. I tried to do it this morning, but was told by Customer Relations to speak to "Market Research", so I have still not been able to report the staff's behaviour or actions to any person in FCC yet, or had any response from FCC.
Were you charged a Penalty Fare of £20, with the remainder being admin fees for late payment? If so, you are liable for it (a Penalty Fare being correct in this case) so I advise paying.RailwayPassenger wrote: »The prosecutor says that he will settle for £57.57, but I fail to see how I am liable for anything more than £7.57.
Or is £57.57 an arbitrary amount that FCC want you to pay as an out of court settlement? If so, you pay it and the matter stays out of court. Or you don't pay it and any exchange of monies will be determined by a Court. You must ensure you have proper legal representation if you to are stand any chance of winning.
Do you know what legislation they are considering using against you? If they are going for a Byelaw offence, then that is a 'strict liability' matter, so good luck defending that - you'll need it.
It sounds like an out of court settlement to me. It's up to both parties to agree a settlement.RailwayPassenger wrote: »The prosecutor states via phone that they do not need to advertise conditions or carriage and will not explain why it's £57.57 not £7.57 other than to complain about "time". This is however a reduction from the £350 roughly it was.
If an agreement cannot be reached, our legal system will decide.
It was wrong of LU staff to say that, however I am unsure how you can prove they said it. This is problematical. I am not sure you want to go down that road in court.RailwayPassenger wrote: »I feel almost as if I have been tricked into travelling using my oyster and that 3 inspectors were waiting for me. If that is not the case, I feel I have been tricked into swiping the wrong machine, which they have since removed and relocated. If that is not the case, I feel a station entrance should have some staff or some way for passengers to be able to check whether it is an oyster job or not.
Even if the LU staff gave incorrect information, I am unsure if a court would accept that defence or not. Consult your solicitor.
Do you have plenty of money to fight it? Is your solicitor confident you have a good case?RailwayPassenger wrote: »Should I fight this case or accept that I've lost over £150 including my personal costs?
If not, £57 is a small price to pay to avoid a lot of expense.
If it was me, I'd pay it, and when I was certain the threat of prosecution was over, I'd then complain to Passenger Focus, and report FCC to the DfT.RailwayPassenger wrote: »I am also wondering how I can report the enforcement team's aggressive or violent behaviour, because FCC will not give me a name or job title to write to, even a department other than "market research" and the police don't see anything criminal about a man in uniform, shouting, pushing, looking in people's pockets and violating rule 8.2 of the PF Policy at the same time.
This is not true of most RPIs.RailwayPassenger wrote: »They clearly have a tactic of breaching byelaw and aggressive behaviour in order to make passenger's suspicious or walk away.
But for a minority of RPIs, I cannot deny such behaviour goes on. But even it it does, it doesn't mean you're not guilty of the offence.
I doubt collusion goes on. Next time I'm at Kentish Town I will ask the staff the question, and see what they say. But that won't be for a few weeks.RailwayPassenger wrote: »I've read on other forums how they did this to a pregnant woman and I myself could be classed as a vulnerable person, I have been receiving support from my local council. On the day of the incident, I was wearing a suit and the inspector's behaviour was odd, insistent he confirmed for himself whether there was £20 cash in my pocket or not, so I don't rule out the possibility that LU staff collude to misinform passengers when they know where the FCC team will be.
Sounds like a byelaw offence. That is non-recordable but is strict liability.RailwayPassenger wrote: »The letter from FCC does state a charge, but talks about Fraud. The first court letter states "not having a ticket". The third letter states "entering a train without a ticket", implying they read my statutory declaration and decided to change the charge.
Haha, I've saved the OP the hassle by replying hereYou might want to post your saga here:
Where passengers are in the right, I welcome it, but in cases like this, where a strict liability offence has been committed and there are a lot of allegations against staff conduct, I think I'll breath a sigh of relief if it is not posted there, quite honestly! 0 -
I really appreciate all the comments and help.
The police did recognize some violence or aggression, but since no physical damage occured they directed me to FCC. The CCTV I was told basically would be inaccessible and even if it was I am not sure what could be gathered, since for example, at one point he was pulling out a ticket book, but also shouting, but viewers will only see that he pulled out a ticket book and the more physical issues occured on the staircase where I believe there were no cameras. After three calls to BTP I gave up, a common thread in the phone call of arguing with me about whether passengers might be at risk or whether it's a civil matter or not.
I think I will pay it and take action of my own. I did offer FCC the opportunity to withdraw and for the sake of £50 they are going to be sorry, as I am genuinely concerned about people I can see that fighting it involves too much time spent in becoming a legal expert, as I can not afford representation nor the time it will take.
I don't think LU staff are in cahoots, but I don't see how I have committed an offence either, as I tried to ascertain the conditions of carriage before boarding or in fact even entering the railway. FCC made no provision that I could see and clearly there were issues at this entrance, they've relocated the machine.
Railway fraud is a serious matter, but this is not the way to deal with it. To me it appears that in other cases, FCC are prosecuting a number of people where in fact it could be said there is reasonable doubt, or simply only a wealthy person with a lot of access to legal services could wade this minefield of criminal and byelaw issues.
With the exception of Poundland, this is the first time I have done this and I just wanted to say in public what happened to me.
Much appreciated for the advice, thank you.0
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