Clarification Needed re: Forgotten Young Person's Railcard

Adrianics

Hello everyone,

Posted this in Consumer Rights and a suggestion was made to post it here, so here goes nothing...

In a nutshell: My partner travelled on a Southern Rail service from London - Brighton yesterday, and has been fined £55 (cost of new ticket + penalty fare) for travelling without her young person's railcard. Despite knowing it's a long-shot, we are planning on appealing the penalty fare.

We do know that it's completely at the discretion of the train company and that the T&Cs are pretty ironclad on this, but my concern is that she wasn't properly informed of her rights w/r/t paying the fine: She was told repeatedly by the two ticket officers present that she had to pay the fine on the spot by debit card, and when she said that she didn't have the money in her account she was told that she'd be 'cautioned' if she continued to refuse to pay, and when pressed for further details on what this meant it wasn't elaborated on. She eventually paid the fine and got details of how to appeal.

So, we hope to appeal based on how often we both use the London - Brighton service, the fact that she's a student with a very low income and the fact that she wasn't properly informed of the procedure or her rights. We will also be sending proof that she does have a valid YPR and that it was a genuine mistake.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the case of penalty fares, the passenger has the right to request a payment order and is under no obligation to pay the penalty fare on the spot. Would anyone be able to confirm if this is or is not the case?

Thanks!

yangptangkipperbang

1. She hasn't been "fined" - she had no valid ticket and has been asked to buy a ticket and pay a "penalty fare" for not having a valid ticket.

2. She doesn't have to be informed ("properly" or otherwise !) of the procedure or her rights. She should read the Ts & Cs and Conditions of Carriage.

3. You admit that the Ts & Cs are "pretty ironclad" - why the appeal ? She was in the "wrong" - end of story !

4. It also does appear that she was less than honest by saying that she did not have the money to buy a ticket when she actually did. I am not surprised that the rail staff insisted that she pay then and there - before she did a "runner" ??

Owain_Moneysaver

The Railcard rules clearly state that the Railcard must be shown with the ticket for the discounted ticket to be valid. Those rules are in the leaflet that's supplied with every Railcard application form.

The only grounds for appeal would be if the Penalty Fare zone signage at London was missing or unclear. It should have been clear before boarding that she was travelling on a Penalty Fare train.

peachyprice

Adrianics wrote: »

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the case of penalty fares, the passenger has the right to request a payment order and is under no obligation to pay the penalty fare on the spot. Would anyone be able to confirm if this is or is not the case?

Even if that were correct it still wouldn't absolve her of travelling without a valid ticket, so a moot point really and no grounds whatsoever for appeal.

As for the rest of your reasons for appeal
1. She agreed to carry the card with her when travelling when she signed up for it
2. What does how often you use the service have to do with it?
3. There are lots of poor students who manage to use the YPRC correctly.

Adrianics

Just to clarify that we are aware of the rules of carriage and T&Cs, and that the burden is on my partner's shoulders. We're just disappointed in the conduct of the officers, and I wanted to know if she had the right not to pay the penalty fare on the spot. Thanks everyone for your input.

giraffe69

Why should you be disappointed?

It is perfectly simple, carry the rail card if you want to benefit from a reduced fare. The officers seem to me to have acted entirely properly. They caught a fare dodger and took a payment for the fare plus a penalty.

wealdroam

I understand that a Penalty Fare is only charged when the ticket inspector believes a genuine mistake has been made.

If the inspector thought that there was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying, then a more substantial remedy would be sought... possibly prosecution.

Therefore OP, your partner should be relieved that the inspector believed her story, and she/you should accept the 'penalty' with good grace.

yorkie2

Adrianics wrote: »

She was told repeatedly by the two ticket officers present that she had to pay the fine on the spot by debit card, and when she said that she didn't have the money in her account she was told that she'd be 'cautioned' if she continued to refuse to pay, and when pressed for further details on what this meant it wasn't elaborated on. She eventually paid the fine and got details of how to appeal.

It's not the case that a Penalty Fare must be paid on the spot, however part-payment of the Penalty Fare, to the value of the full fare, is payable.

A Penalty Fare on Southern is double the full fare (or, for tickets costing less than £10, it's £20).

They can, however, choose not to issue a Penalty Fare, and instead report the matter for possible prosecution, which would be a 'strict liability' matter. If found guilty, it really would be a fine, and of a much more considerable sum.

Adrianics wrote: »

So, we hope to appeal based on how often we both use the London - Brighton service, the fact that she's a student with a very low income and the fact that she wasn't properly informed of the procedure or her rights. We will also be sending proof that she does have a valid YPR and that it was a genuine mistake.

The inspector treated her in accordance with how they treat people who make "genuine mistakes" under certain circumstances.

Adrianics wrote: »

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the case of penalty fares, the passenger has the right to request a payment order and is under no obligation to pay the penalty fare on the spot. Would anyone be able to confirm if this is or is not the case?

They'd need to pay at least part of it.

But, let's face it, there's nothing to stop the inspectors saying "If you don't pay the full amount, we won't issue a PF and will instead report you for prosecution". It's sharp practice, but there's no ombudsman, no effective passenger rights organisation, and no enforceable legislation that can actually stop them doing that.

It's not like a restaurant or shop; Southern are not too bothered if they put people off using their service. It's not about customer service.

It would be rather different if you used one of the 'Inter-City' operators such as Virgin Trains or East Coast, who are more interested in the concept of customer service, in which case the Guard may show discretion and only charge the excess, and at worst charge for a new ticket (and not double the cost of a new ticket).

Travelling without a fully valid ticket on Companies like Southern and FCC, even unintentionally, can be a very dangerous and costly thing to do. There are people employed by them whose aim is to catch people out - quite literally.

Altarf

yorkie2 wrote: »

They can, however, choose not to issue a Penalty Fare, and instead report the matter for possible prosecution, which would be a 'strict liability' matter. If found guilty, it really would be a fine, and of a much more considerable sum.

Or take the other approach that FCC and some others seem quite keen on, which is to proceed with prosecution unless you pay a bribe to the rail company when they will then look the other way and forget about the offence.

Adrianics

Thanks everyone for your input, all I really wanted was clarification re: whether or not you have the right to refuse to pay the penalty fare on the day. Now that I know you don't, we can move on with our lives.

I hardly think the insinuations that my partner was lying or calling her a 'fare dodger' were necessary, but them's the breaks, I suppose.

yorkie2

Altarf wrote: »

Or take the other approach that FCC and some others seem quite keen on, which is to proceed with prosecution unless you pay a bribe to the rail company when they will then look the other way and forget about the offence.

Well, I wasn't going to put it like that. But, effectively, yes.

Adrianics wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your input, all I really wanted was clarification re: whether or not you have the right to refuse to pay the penalty fare on the day. Now that I know you don't, we can move on with our lives.

Well, you technically do.

As the PF has been paid and that is the end of the matter, you could actually complain about that. You could also take it to Passenger Focus.

They really shouldn't be telling people they have to pay in full on the day.

Adrianics wrote: »

I hardly think the insinuations that my partner was lying or calling her a 'fare dodger' were necessary, but them's the breaks, I suppose.

I agree. You can mention that in your complaint too.

Quite frankly some RPIs (by no means all - I know some friendly ones personally!) for some TOCs treat customers in a way that would get most of us the sack!

Polite, yet assertive, complaints - taken forward to Passenger Focus as necessary, just might see an attitude change.

The complaint could be apologetic of the fact the Railcard was forgotten, understanding of the need to charge for a new ticket, but asking clarification on whether or not it's the Company's expetations that their staff insist the PF is paid in full on the spot, and whether the way they spoke to you, including accusations of fare dodging, are in line with the Company's expactations.

Word it right and you may get a good response. And, if you don't, it can be escalated.