How can I find out how much power appliances use?

GreenBo

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I've just been through the manuals and the forum for the product and it looks like a decent initial offering, but currently seems to have many of the same flaws as other systems with not too many advantages ... as such it looks to be something designed by a manufacturer without fully researching the customer requirements.

Flicking through the specs and manual, I can't readily see if/how/where the mains voltage is set. Combining this with the inability of the system to measure power factor (either whole house or by mains outlet) using it to measure/meter usage cannot be any more accurate than any other 'clamp based' monitor .... you see so many reports of clamp monitors being inaccurate at low loads, but what most making these reports fail to realise is that many low load appliances have extremely poor power factors, which lead to inaccurate readings.

However, I do like the ability to control appliances with the app, but this is where any future development needs to be as what's there is too basic - it's no use just having a schedule or socket remotes, it needs some logic gates sitting in the app to make the system useful .... If I was looking to spend £300+ on one of these and some socket switches I'd certainly want it to be a little more advanced in functionality ...

I'll stick to the OWL for the entire house and a plug-in unit to monitor individual appliances for the moment and wait for the 'right product' to suit pv automation needs to come along ....

HTH
Z

I completely agree with you on the accuracy side of things, but I think you've got it the wrong way around.

The Smappee device was the only home energy monitor I could find on the market that continually measured the voltage and used it to calculate kWh, like my utility meter does, taking into account the power factor and everything. I got educated on all this when I tried to argue with my utility that my bill was way wrong - only to be told, by an electrician friend of mine, that my 'old' home energy monitor could be about 10% inaccurate, or much more because it assumed a constant voltage measurement and didn't take into account the power factor calculation. Apparently the power factor affects the accuracy of the kWh energy calculation a lot more than the variation in voltage so any home energy monitor that doesn't take these into account, dynamically, should be treated as a 'best guess' (using his words) rather than a true reflection of how much energy is being used. He helped me trawl the market and ask the right technical questions to the various ones I was looking at and said the Smappee was the only one he would buy if he wanted something as accurate as my billing meter.

I bought mine for about £160. Not sure where you got the £300 from.

Now I've got it to inform me if anyone turns anything comes on that shouldn't I feel like I'm in that George Orwell film -1984.:rotfl:

I'm going to try some of their smart plug things soon. I'll let you know how I get on. I'm yet to be convinced they'll save me much energy as I feel I've got it pretty well locked down now - although then again I thought that when I had an Owl, before Smappee came on the scene.

zeupater

GreenBo wrote: »

I completely agree with you on the accuracy side of things, but I think you've got it the wrong way around.

The Smappee device was the only home energy monitor I could find on the market that continually measured the voltage and used it to calculate kWh, like my utility meter does, taking into account the power factor and everything. I got educated on all this when I tried to argue with my utility that my bill was way wrong - only to be told, by an electrician friend of mine, that my 'old' home energy monitor could be about 10% inaccurate, or much more because it assumed a constant voltage measurement and didn't take into account the power factor calculation. Apparently the power factor affects the accuracy of the kWh energy calculation a lot more than the variation in voltage so any home energy monitor that doesn't take these into account, dynamically, should be treated as a 'best guess' (using his words) rather than a true reflection of how much energy is being used. He helped me trawl the market and ask the right technical questions to the various ones I was looking at and said the Smappee was the only one he would buy if he wanted something as accurate as my billing meter.

I bought mine for about £160. Not sure where you got the £300 from.

Now I've got it to inform me if anyone turns anything comes on that shouldn't I feel like I'm in that George Orwell film -1984.:rotfl:

I'm going to try some of their smart plug things soon. I'll let you know how I get on. I'm yet to be convinced they'll save me much energy as I feel I've got it pretty well locked down now - although then again I thought that when I had an Owl, before Smappee came on the scene.

Hi

Regarding voltage - are you sure ??? ..... I've just gone through the specs for a second time and can find absolutely no reference to the mains voltage either being set or monitored, just reference to the ability to distinguish current & direction and to 'learn' the signature of devices/appliances as they are switched on/off .... I've even read & translated a number of reviews etc and can find absolutely no relevant reference to 'volt' or 'power' .... I have a suspicion that the voltage is simply application-assumed from a standard nominal value table depending on the country selection with the power being the resultant of multiplying this by the current being measured by the clamp sensors ...

I really do also have reservations on the ability of such a unit to actually profile many of the devices which many would have in their houses because of the variation in power which they could draw over time .... for example - anything with inverter power control would have a totally variable profile (incl a number of modern microwaves, ovens, freezers, tumble dryers, heatpumps etc) - then there's induction hobs which would change by the number, size & combination of saucepans being used - and, of course, in solar environments there's various methods for proportional power delivery to DHW or backup battery systems - and televisions which vary their power by individual picture frame brightness and/or ambient lighting conditions ... I can follow how/why an increase in demand of (say)2782Watts would/could be attributed to a kettle switching on, but if it's something which could be anything between (say)200w & 2kw at startup and vary to anything else in that range over time it must reasonably be considered to be open to the possibility of error ....

Regarding the £300 .... £298.93 would be the delivered cost of 1 device and a couple of 6packs of remote control sockets at £60 each ....

If I could find additional details I may be open to change my initial view, but if they're available they certainly need to be a little more visible. I'm pretty much a gadget lover if I can see a need, but I'd really need to trial this as a 'freebee' as I can't currently see where the additional value as a moneysaving device over any other (cheaper) energy monitor lies.

HTH
Z

GreenBo

Well I was sure about the voltage.. until you started making me doubt myself so I contacted their support desk, who confirmed that they do indeed sample the voltage and calculate the power factor. As I said, I couldn't find another home energy monitor that did this. I also just checked out last months total kWh for my home from my smart meter and compared it to what Smappee said, they were within 1% of each other. Last year when I was using an Owl and before that something similar from BG (I think!) they were more like 5-8% of each other because they don't sample the voltage. So Smappee seems to be one heck of a lot more accurate, which is great if you want to use it to check your bill is right.

For the technically inept out there i.e. me, before my mate the electrician educated me.

Energy = volts x amps x power factor

If you assume volts and power factor stays constant, like most home energy monitors, it causes a lot of inaccuracy.

However, what I really got it for is helping me reduce my energy cost. My thinking was that if you want to see where your money is going you look at your back statement which tells you exactly how much you spent, with who and when. Or if you want to reduce your phone bill you look at your itemised phone bill and work it from there in a similar way i.e. you get visibility on where your costs are going as a first step to managing your costs. Whereas previously with my smart meter, Owl and other home energy monitors they only gave me the total figure for the house. A little like trying to manage your finances by just checking your balance now and again using a hole in the wall.

What I wanted, and the reason I went for the Smappee device, was something that told me where, when and how much energy was being used in the house at any one time, instantly and historically. Helping me get visibility on all this was why I was able to reduce the energy in such a dramatic fashion so quickly and easily within the first few weeks, because I'd never seen it presented like that before It was like opening my 'energy' eyes and seeing where my energy costs were leaking out of my house. I had used one of those plug/socket meters in the past but they didn't get me to where I wanted to be. Also, those energy plug/socket things were useless for the big energy guzzlers in the house such as immersions, shower, fridge, cooker, washer/dryer, dishwasher etc which all either were wired directly to the fuse box or I would have had to have pulled them out from my fitted kitchen to be able to get to the plugs behind, which would have been a right PITA, especially when I wanted to read them :mad:

So far I reckon I'll get my money back in another 5 months and save about £20 a month then on.

The whole cost saving and green thing is cool and all that but the gadget factor is way up there for me with this thing :T

ziggys101

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Regarding voltage - are you sure ??? ..... I've just gone through the specs for a second time and can find absolutely no reference to the mains voltage either being set or monitored, just reference to the ability to distinguish current & direction and to 'learn' the signature of devices/appliances as they are switched on/off .... I've even read & translated a number of reviews etc and can find absolutely no relevant reference to 'volt' or 'power' .... I have a suspicion that the voltage is simply application-assumed from a standard nominal value table depending on the country selection with the power being the resultant of multiplying this by the current being measured by the clamp sensors ...

I really do also have reservations on the ability of such a unit to actually profile many of the devices which many would have in their houses because of the variation in power which they could draw over time .... for example - anything with inverter power control would have a totally variable profile (incl a number of modern microwaves, ovens, freezers, tumble dryers, heatpumps etc) - then there's induction hobs which would change by the number, size & combination of saucepans being used - and, of course, in solar environments there's various methods for proportional power delivery to DHW or backup battery systems - and televisions which vary their power by individual picture frame brightness and/or ambient lighting conditions ... I can follow how/why an increase in demand of (say)2782Watts would/could be attributed to a kettle switching on, but if it's something which could be anything between (say)200w & 2kw at startup and vary to anything else in that range over time it must reasonably be considered to be open to the possibility of error ....

Regarding the £300 .... £298.93 would be the delivered cost of 1 device and a couple of 6packs of remote control sockets at £60 each ....

If I could find additional details I may be open to change my initial view, but if they're available they certainly need to be a little more visible. I'm pretty much a gadget lover if I can see a need, but I'd really need to trial this as a 'freebee' as I can't currently see where the additional value as a moneysaving device over any other (cheaper) energy monitor lies.

HTH
Z

Those details are on the device see below:
Instantaneous values:
voltage=245.9 Vrms
FFTComponents:
Phase 1:
current=2.783 A, activePower=646.8 W, reactivePower=223.967 var, apparentPower=684.479 VA, cosfi=94, quadrant=0, phaseshift=0.0, phaseDiff=0.0

zeupater

ziggys101 wrote: »

Those details are on the device see below:
Instantaneous values:
voltage=245.9 Vrms
FFTComponents:
Phase 1:
current=2.783 A, activePower=646.8 W, reactivePower=223.967 var, apparentPower=684.479 VA, cosfi=94, quadrant=0, phaseshift=0.0, phaseDiff=0.0

Hi

So, I take it that this information is available through the app by querying the device .... do you know whether is this done by passing a sampling query directly to the individual plugs (are they that advanced ?), or is the data the result of measuring the whole house power-factor before and after switching, then estimating and attributing the power factor to an appliance (/plug) database ?? if so, is it (/how is it) averaged as the load of a particular appliance changes ....

Is there any technical documentation, manual or FAQ which covers this ... I've just quickly scanned the site and documentation again and nothing at all regarding this seemed to be visible .... if the product has such an advantage over most of the competition you'd have thought that the functionality would be a major marketing point ....

I still also have an issue on following how something which is monitoring load switching patterns and attributing them to known patterns & values for future recognition copes with something which has a wide and fully variable power range combined with some step switching .... for example an inverter based combination microwave/oven/grill, induction hob or inverter based refrigeration equipment (including heat-pumps) .... it'd either be far more sophisticated than I give credit, or it's likely to get a little 'confused' ... is there an 'unknown' source which is likely to act as a catch-all under these circumstances ?? ...

Interesting ...

HTH
Z

ziggys101

Sorry I can't answer your question, the details were from logging directly onto the unit not via the app. I've only had the unit since the weekend and I would estimate its around 75% accurate on identifying the appliances and can at times incorrectly report what has turned on but for what I want and was expecting that is acceptable. An example is I have a fridge freezer and a separate freezer the smappee has identified them as a single appliance.

zeupater

Thanks ....

Let us know how it goes as you get more familiar with the unit and it settles in. Regarding the refrigeration - it's likely that the compressors have a very similar power signature, especially when starting a cycle, so it's not unexpected .... perhaps it's possible to get the unit to 'learn' the difference, but as you say, if you don't need the differentiation it might as well all be reported as refrigeration.

Z

gfitzp

I've read through this entire thread and comparing different energy monitoring tools with eachother, both the Owl Intuition Monitor and also the Smappee look like viable alternatives.

The owl is basic in that it calculates total home usage, where as the smappee is "meant" to calculate on a per device basis.
I've read a number of unbias internet reviews which stated that the smappee fails to find/learn devices under 40w of usage.
Additionally you can manually teach the smappee by switching devices on/off individually with some degree of success..

Regarding the views on this forum its my belief that both GreenBo and ziggys101 have only ever posted on this Forum thread,

In GreenBo's view: 1min he's non techy, next min he's very techy and there's alot of sales points made which makes me doubt his views as I've yet to see anyone else agree with him.

In ziggys101 view:
Originally Posted by ziggys101 View Post
Those details are on the device see below:
Instantaneous values:
voltage=245.9 Vrms
FFTComponents:
Phase 1:
current=2.783 A, activePower=646.8 W, reactivePower=223.967 var, apparentPower=684.479 VA, cosfi=94, quadrant=0, phaseshift=0.0, phaseDiff=0.0

Ziggys101 mentions connecting directly to the device (not via app) to generate this realtime data but with ZERO context...

Additionally Comfort plugs will only work automatically via a Wifi Interface which doesnt come as standard.


Disclaimer:
I dont work for any provider of these devices.. I'm simply a Smart/Green-Home enthusiast looking for the best option.
Please if you have used smappee or any other device and are not secretly working for the vendor please post your experiences here.

ziggys101

gfitzp wrote: »

I've read through this entire thread and comparing different energy monitoring tools with eachother, both the Owl Intuition Monitor and also the Smappee look like viable alternatives.

The owl is basic in that it calculates total home usage, where as the smappee is "meant" to calculate on a per device basis.
I've read a number of unbias internet reviews which stated that the smappee fails to find/learn devices under 40w of usage.
Additionally you can manually teach the smappee by switching devices on/off individually with some degree of success..

Regarding the views on this forum its my belief that both GreenBo and ziggys101 have only ever posted on this Forum thread,

In GreenBo's view: 1min he's non techy, next min he's very techy and there's alot of sales points made which makes me doubt his views as I've yet to see anyone else agree with him.

In ziggys101 view:
Originally Posted by ziggys101 View Post
Those details are on the device see below:
Instantaneous values:
voltage=245.9 Vrms
FFTComponents:
Phase 1:
current=2.783 A, activePower=646.8 W, reactivePower=223.967 var, apparentPower=684.479 VA, cosfi=94, quadrant=0, phaseshift=0.0, phaseDiff=0.0

Ziggys101 mentions connecting directly to the device (not via app) to generate this realtime data but with ZERO context...

Additionally Comfort plugs will only work automatically via a Wifi Interface which doesnt come as standard.


Disclaimer:
I dont work for any provider of these devices.. I'm simply a Smart/Green-Home enthusiast looking for the best option.
Please if you have used smappee or any other device and are not secretly working for the vendor please post your experiences here.

Not sure what you are suggesting here, yes I've only ever posted on this thread as ive only just joined because I was looking for info reviews on the smappee and when I bought one I thought I would try and help others. What do you mean ZERO context? what do you want? I thought this was the type of info the poster wanted!

GreenBo

I was the same as Ziggy. I was googling Smappee to try to connect to some users out there as they were few and far between. A lot more now though. Which is why this was the only thread I've been interested in.

To give some more feedback, as I've had it for a while now.

Accuracy, compared to my billing meter each month is +/- 0.5%

I would estimate that it detects the appliances in my home which make up about 90% of the energy cost.

Sometimes Smappee gets confused between different things but in the main I'd say it's OK. I think someone mentioned 75% success rate - I think that's about right but I haven't done any detailed analysis on that yet.

The comfort plugs work great, nice and simple, but I've only managed to find a home for one of them, which is on the plug strip for the home entertainment stuff e.g. Sky, TV, Xbox, DVD player. I scheduled it so it turns off at night and in the day when I'm at work. Calculated a £35 annual saving. OK... it's not going to get the kids through college but the plug only cost me £10 so it all helps.

A tip to any other users out there. Don't do what I did and put one of the Comfort Plugs on the broadband router :rotfl: I thought it would be a good idea to also switch it off at night and while I'm at work as it seems to use a bit of needless power, but when I did.... the Smappee couldn't get internet access. DOH!!

Has anyone out there tried connecting it to any IFTTT channels yet? if so, how and what?