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Redundancy / Alternative position
pingufan
Posts: 123 Forumite
Hiya,just wondered if someone would know the answer to the following as we are having a disagreement in work about it!
Our company made a large number of people redundant a few years ago against a selection criteria made up from the following
Amount of sickness
Any disciplinaries
A score taken from a skills matrix linked to an annual performance review
Everything was scored and the lowest scorers lost their jobs.
The scores were totted up by the managers so whilst they couldn't argue the sickness and disciplinary scores as they were facts, the skills score was purely open to interpretation by the team leaders and managers.
Many of the older members of staff lost their jobs, many with over 20 years experience and lots of the ones that stayed were demoted up to two grades losing many thousands of pounds a year.
People who had been in the company 6 months stayed and scored higher or the same for skills than people who had been there 20 years plus.
It was a total carve up and the unions rolled over and died as they had agreed the selection criteria - they didn't realise that the managers would have been so sly to engineer the score to make sure almost all the people that left were long serving.
It since came out that the point of the whole exercise was to change the culture and start afresh with new blood (they had recruited a large number of people 6 months before).
Talking to a colleague yesterday who was one of the ones that stayed but was put down to a lower grade and he says that he has been told it is against the law to select for redundancy or demotion using a skills matrix/annual appraisal or sickness - he is considering making a claim against the company and visiting a solicitor.
Can this be true? Does anyone know if the company broke the law?
Our company made a large number of people redundant a few years ago against a selection criteria made up from the following
Amount of sickness
Any disciplinaries
A score taken from a skills matrix linked to an annual performance review
Everything was scored and the lowest scorers lost their jobs.
The scores were totted up by the managers so whilst they couldn't argue the sickness and disciplinary scores as they were facts, the skills score was purely open to interpretation by the team leaders and managers.
Many of the older members of staff lost their jobs, many with over 20 years experience and lots of the ones that stayed were demoted up to two grades losing many thousands of pounds a year.
People who had been in the company 6 months stayed and scored higher or the same for skills than people who had been there 20 years plus.
It was a total carve up and the unions rolled over and died as they had agreed the selection criteria - they didn't realise that the managers would have been so sly to engineer the score to make sure almost all the people that left were long serving.
It since came out that the point of the whole exercise was to change the culture and start afresh with new blood (they had recruited a large number of people 6 months before).
Talking to a colleague yesterday who was one of the ones that stayed but was put down to a lower grade and he says that he has been told it is against the law to select for redundancy or demotion using a skills matrix/annual appraisal or sickness - he is considering making a claim against the company and visiting a solicitor.
Can this be true? Does anyone know if the company broke the law?
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Comments
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I was in a similar situation just before Christmas in a team of people one of whom was up for redundancy. It was decided by a scoring matrix against a set of skills interpreted by a panel of managers and peers. I would think if it was illegal our HR manager would not have allowed it as he is very thorough.0
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A few years ago will probably be too late for ET or any complaint that will stand up outside the company.
Should have challenged the scores if they were not seen as objective at the time, issue is that experience will not always mean more skilled and if they feel there is an element of stuck in their ways that could be measured as less skilled an inability to adapt.
Why did people accept the alternatives on lower pay, they should have challenged then as not suitable alternatives.
Why are they still there?0 -
When I was made redundant I asked to see the scores and was told if I wanted to see them I would have to hand back the PILON.
I didn't even know what we were all scored on.
A few weeks after I left someone went on maternity leave and they took someone on to fill in for her when I should have really been offered it as they knew she was going but told me they were not replacing her when on ML.
A lot of companies lie to fit what they want to do with their business.We’ve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if you’re unsure why it’s been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0 -
No, not true. Doesn't sound like they broke the law at all:Hiya,just wondered if someone would know the answer to the following as we are having a disagreement in work about it!
Our company made a large number of people redundant a few years ago against a selection criteria made up from the following
Amount of sickness
Any disciplinaries
A score taken from a skills matrix linked to an annual performance review
Everything was scored and the lowest scorers lost their jobs.
The scores were totted up by the managers so whilst they couldn't argue the sickness and disciplinary scores as they were facts, the skills score was purely open to interpretation by the team leaders and managers.
Many of the older members of staff lost their jobs, many with over 20 years experience and lots of the ones that stayed were demoted up to two grades losing many thousands of pounds a year.
People who had been in the company 6 months stayed and scored higher or the same for skills than people who had been there 20 years plus.
It was a total carve up and the unions rolled over and died as they had agreed the selection criteria - they didn't realise that the managers would have been so sly to engineer the score to make sure almost all the people that left were long serving.
It since came out that the point of the whole exercise was to change the culture and start afresh with new blood (they had recruited a large number of people 6 months before).
Talking to a colleague yesterday who was one of the ones that stayed but was put down to a lower grade and he says that he has been told it is against the law to select for redundancy or demotion using a skills matrix/annual appraisal or sickness - he is considering making a claim against the company and visiting a solicitor.
Can this be true? Does anyone know if the company broke the law?
Making staff redundant
If you decide you need to make compulsory redundancies, you must:- identify which employees will be made redundant
- make sure you select people fairly - don’t discriminate
Fair selection criteria
Fair reasons for selecting employees for redundancy include:- skills, qualifications and aptitude
- standard of work and/or performance
- attendance
- disciplinary record
Sounds more like your colleague is resentful of the demotion. It's quite possible for employees who've only been with a company a short time to score higher on a skills matrix, especially if the company is moving forward or going through change. New starters, for example don't have pre conceived ideas or the notion of 'we've always done it this way'.0 -
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On the grounds that if I wanted to see the scores retun to work, work the 4 week notice and hand back the PILON.getmore4less wrote: »On what grounds?
Notice is a statutory right so the only thing they could do is have you work it.
I only knew I was allowed to see the scores once I had left work and called ACAS.We’ve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if you’re unsure why it’s been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0 -
On the grounds that if I wanted to see the scores retun to work, work the 4 week notice and hand back the PILON.
I only knew I was allowed to see the scores once I had left work and called ACAS.
That's what I said, but why hand it back you would have got paid the notice anyway and that would be the same.
Might have caused them a problem as they would have already terminated the employment and would have has to reinstate.0 -
You're not entitled to see the scores (i.e. everyone else's scores). You are entitled to see the objective process and should be consulted and given notice on this and notified of your score and how it is derived after selection is carried out.When I was made redundant I asked to see the scores and was told if I wanted to see them I would have to hand back the PILON.
I didn't even know what we were all scored on.
A few weeks after I left someone went on maternity leave and they took someone on to fill in for her when I should have really been offered it as they knew she was going but told me they were not replacing her when on ML.
A lot of companies lie to fit what they want to do with their business.0 -
Hand it back and return to work to get to see the scoring. I'd have to work the notice.getmore4less wrote: »That's what I said, but why hand it back you would have got paid the notice anyway and that would be the same.
Might have caused them a problem as they would have already terminated the employment and would have has to reinstate.
I saw that as blackmail as ACAS said I could see what they scored me on - company had another view.
They told me they paid me PILON as it would make me 'better off'
Anyway too late to do anything about it now and I wish them all the luck in the world as I hear they are doing very well NOT :rotfl::rotfl:We’ve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if you’re unsure why it’s been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0
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