Debts making me ill again

Dominuus

Was told to repost this ob this part of forum.

Last year I finally started my recovery from severe depression, whilst I am not out of the woods yet I am getting there.

Anyway, I started trying to get my finances back on track and clearing up my debts.

I thought I was doing the correct thing and wrote to the Companies involved sating my cases and surprisingly some were quite good-ish, others are just ignorant

1. I had a card with M&S, I wrote to them in Oct 2013 saying that I had had a problem and was now in a position to start paying my debt back. I heard nothing back from them until today when I got a letter from Arrow Global, threatening court action.

2. Provident, they just ignore all letters.

3. I wrote to Orange/EE and they cleared the debt and made it satisfactory but debt still shows from Lowell, I have not got an account number or anything so don't know what to say to Lowell.

4. Capital One, I have written to them asking why I even have the debt as I paid the extra to cover payments(PPI) and filled in the form they sent me and sent it back to them. They just ignore all letters.

Now points 1 & 2 I do not deny that I have these debts but just would like some way for these to be sorted out and ultimately clear from my file.

Points 3 & 4 I deny and I am at my wits end as to what to do.

Maybe no-one will be able to help, maybe there is nothing that can be done and I will just have to ignore them as they ignore me, but maybe someone will have some idea as I am again getting ill with the worry, talking about it is not easy for me to do.

Monkeyballs

Hi Dominuus,

Welcome to the forum and kudos for starting to take your life back I really cannot offer any advice re. your depression and I doubt you'd want to hear me waffle on as well but if you have started your recovery then keep going and keep doing whatever it is that you're doing and maybe consider speaking to your GP if you've not already done so

Ok... Debts! Something I may be offer something useful on...

Contacting companies to try to tackle your debts is a great thing to do and can be quite empowering but it's surprising who are the goodies and who are the baddies when it comes to dealing with them! It sounds like you're finding this out now anyway but before I go any further, have you spoekn to any of the debt charities or to the CAB for advice? If nothing else just being able to talk to someone instead of waiting for a reply to a forum post can be a big boost

My suggestion would be Step Change who I have my DMP with and all the way have been excellent in offering guidance and support, well worth considering!

1. I have no experience of dealing with M&S nor do I know who Arrow Global are? I'm guessing the debt has been sold to a DCA... How old is the debt and do you know when you last made any payment or acknowledgement to it? I'm sure someone else will be along soon to offer more advice here as well

2. Provident... Yeah... If they are ignoring you then it will be tricky, again how old is the debt and do you know when you last made any payment or acknowledgement to it?

3. Do you have anything in writing from Orange/EE? What does it say? It's possible that they bought the debt from Orange before you got in touch... Once again, how old is the debt and do you know when you last made any payment or acknowledgement to it?

4. Could be a case of PPI being miss-sold? There could be a claim here... I don't want to get your hopes up but what was your financial situation prior to your depression? Were you making payments on time, in full time work but got made redundant, etc?

The last thing you need to be doing is getting more worked up about any debts and creditors for which you are not being chased so if you are being ignored then until you have sought further advice (preferably from CAB or a debt charity) then leave them for the moment... But keep posting, keep talking, keep positive and be healthy

MB x

DCFC79

Point 3 Id send the prove it letter and see what comes back, maybe send it to Orange and Lowell.

Murphy2011

Hi Dominuus, I won't add anything else to the excellent financial advice from Monkeyballs but I definitely empathise re the depression. I had a stint as in inpatient at a mental health facility last year and frankly having huge debts was probably part of that. You have been fantastically brave to acknowledge all of your problems both financial and personal & it is the first step on the road to feeling better...it only gets easier from here I promise. If you have a look at the top of the Forum details Martin has a great booklet about debt and mental health that you can download, it surprised me how interlinked the 2 are. Keep doing what you are doing but don't be afraid to ask for help, we are fragile & part of depression is thinking we have to do it all on our own....we don't ! Look after yourself and definitely talk to someone like Stepchange and remember as well, financial institutions have a duty of care particularly to those suffering mental health issues, if you are brave enought then ask your GP to write a letter for you and send it to all of them Recorded Delivery, you might find their attitude changes.

Dominuus

Thank you for the advice, hope you don't mind if I keep expanding on all of this.

M&S the debt is approx 3+ years old and I was wondering why if the debt was sold as looks likely why is it straight away counting as a default. I phoned M&S and was basically told tough, the debt is now with Arrow and I have to deal with them. If I write to them

Have written to Provident again and this time sent recorded delivery, again it is approx 3+ years old.

Have nothing from Orange, but the debt arose because basically 5 ish years ago I had a contract with them and wanted an Iphone, they did not have IPhones at that time so told them I would be changing contract. They kept charging me every month despite me asking them to stop, they never did so I just cancelled the DD and they kept trying to charge me until they gave up. Trying to talk to them was a nightmare, I gave up trying to get the money back from them and as I never heard anything from them forgot all about it. I wrote to Orange/EE again and there is now an additional entry on my credit report from EE saying satisfactory but the Lowell one is still there. Should I write to Lowell again?

Capital 1, I had PPI with them and filled out the claim form from them, paid the Dr's fee to get form filled in and sent it back to them, they now just ignore my letters. I cannot phone them as I cannot really cope with the stress, so I don't know what to do if they keep ignoring my letters.

I feel daft really as my debts are not for huge amounts and this morning the local council have finally decided what I am due them for tax and rent, backdated and in the hands of Scott and Co, even though they have admitted that they are still waiting for the DWP to sort out my ESA and DLA due to the great service from ATOS. I guess I should never have taken out my own income protection plan with Tunbridge Wells and certainly not forget I had it.

I guess I will have to be brave and tell partner how badly I mucked up.

Sazzie23

Dominuus wrote: »

Thank you for the advice, hope you don't mind if I keep expanding on all of this.

M&S the debt is approx 3+ years old and I was wondering why if the debt was sold as looks likely why is it straight away counting as a default. I phoned M&S and was basically told tough, the debt is now with Arrow and I have to deal with them. If I write to them

Have written to Provident again and this time sent recorded delivery, again it is approx 3+ years old.

Have nothing from Orange, but the debt arose because basically 5 ish years ago I had a contract with them and wanted an Iphone, they did not have IPhones at that time so told them I would be changing contract. They kept charging me every month despite me asking them to stop, they never did so I just cancelled the DD and they kept trying to charge me until they gave up. Trying to talk to them was a nightmare, I gave up trying to get the money back from them and as I never heard anything from them forgot all about it. I wrote to Orange/EE again and there is now an additional entry on my credit report from EE saying satisfactory but the Lowell one is still there. Should I write to Lowell again?

Capital 1, I had PPI with them and filled out the claim form from them, paid the Dr's fee to get form filled in and sent it back to them, they now just ignore my letters. I cannot phone them as I cannot really cope with the stress, so I don't know what to do if they keep ignoring my letters.

I feel daft really as my debts are not for huge amounts and this morning the local council have finally decided what I am due them for tax and rent, backdated and in the hands of Scott and Co, even though they have admitted that they are still waiting for the DWP to sort out my ESA and DLA due to the great service from ATOS. I guess I should never have taken out my own income protection plan with Tunbridge Wells and certainly not forget I had it.

I guess I will have to be brave and tell partner how badly I mucked up.

Hi Dom

Not sure I fully understand where you are with your debts and records and stuff, but I do know you are trying hard to do something about it. It might not have worked out yet, but be proud of yourself for having a darn good try, and don't give up.

Good luck with that OH talk, its never nice or easy but it is the right thing to do and might relieve a bit of tension.

Scoobysnax666

First thing, and this is just general information. If a debt is over 6 years old and you have made no payment or acknowledgement of the debt at all during that period it is statute barred and NO ONE can collect on it. It comes under

Limitation Act 1980 Section 5
[FONT=&quot]"an action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued".

IMPORTANT
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Statute Barred does not apply if the creditor has a CCJ (County Court Judgement) against you for this. If they have not enforced it for over 6 years though they cannot just decide to start doing so, they will need the court's permission.


1. ARROW GLOBAL. Have they sent a notice of assignment to you by registered/recorded delivery? If not, ignore them, they cannot take action against you in court without HSBC as co claimant. HSBC own M & S Bank and M & S Financial Services. If they are claiming assignment, and did not serve this personally or did not send this to you by registered/recorded delivery it is a bad notice assignment and not enforceable.

Law Of Property Act (1925) s196[/FONT]
Regulations respecting notices.
(4) Any notice required or authorised by this Act to be served shall also be sufficiently served, if it is sent by post in a registered letteraddressed to the lessee, lessor, mortgagee, mortgagor, or other person to be served, by name, at the aforesaid place of abode or business, office, or counting-house, and if that letter is not returned by the postal operator (within the meaning of the Postal Services Act 2000) concerned undelivered; and that service shall be deemed to be made at the time at which the registered letter would in the ordinary course be delivered.[/B]

Also, did M & S send you a default notice? If not or you cannot remember, ask Arrow Global for a copy of it. If they did not send one it is an unlawful recission of contract which will prevent any court from enforcing collection on it. It may also give a cause for counter claim of damages against them see Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119.

NEVER SIGN THE LETTER, THEY COULD SCAN YOUR SIGNATURE AND ADD IT TO ANY DOCUMENT THEY WISH. EASY TO DO AND WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST TIME A DCA HAS DONE THIS. PRINT YOUR NAME ONLY!!!!!!

ALSO, NEVER USE THE WORD "DEBT", USE "ALLEGED ACCOUNT". IT IS NOT A DEBT UNTIL THEY PROVE IT IS AND THAT THEY OWN IT.

2. PROVIDENT. If you really want to pay them, send them another letter by recorded delivery this time. However, advise them that if they do not reply within 14 days that you will consider this an acquiescence agreement that the debt will no longer exist and any contact after this time period will be construed as harassment under Section 40(1) of the Administration of Justice Act 1970. If no reply is received after 14 days, send another letter stating that as they have not responded you consider the debt settled. Ask for this to be reflected on your credit file and again then re-iterate that ANY future collection activity by their company, their affiliates, owners, agents and/or otherwise will be viewed as harassment and give you a cause of action against them under the above legislation. After that forget them unless they do not alter your credit file.If that is the case, send copies of your letters to the credit reference agency and ask them to alter it.

3. LOWELL. They should be able to find your alleged account with them from your name and address. Ask Lowell for a copy of the CCA from Orange/EE, they have 12 + 2 days to supply it, the chances are they will not be able to. Lowell usually at that point say they are closing the account and normally remove DNs at same time or a month later. Hopefully, problem solved.

4. What exactly did the PPI cover you for missed payments wise? Were you laid off, unable to work through illness etc? Are you sure whatever the reason was, was covered? If you are and Capital One will not answer, contact the Financial Ombudsman.

Hope this helps.

Dominuus

Lots to do

As I live in Scotland are the laws still the same?

I am just using the address for Lowell's that I found on their website, is this the correct one.

I just got a letter from M&S saying they had sold debt Arrow and that it is Westcot who have been appointed by Arrow and it states that it is a Notice of Assignment. Sorry I didn't read it fully, just panicked so it is Westcot who are dealing with this, but I haven't heard anything from them.

Would asking Arrow for a default notice not make them aware I had received the letter or can I say I noticed on my credit report.

As far as I can remember the PPI thing was added to cover me if I was made unemployed, off sick, unable to work. I was signed off, got the form from them, filled it in and sent it back after paying for my Dr to fill in the report. They sent me a couple of bills after this and I phoned and explained and was told, OK don't worry about this, it will get sorted out when the PPI paperwork goes through the system, then nothing and now being ignored.

Scoobysnax666

Dominuus wrote: »

Lots to do

As I live in Scotland are the laws still the same?

I am just using the address for Lowell's that I found on their website, is this the correct one.

I just got a letter from M&S saying they had sold debt Arrow and that it is Westcot who have been appointed by Arrow and it states that it is a Notice of Assignment. Sorry I didn't read it fully, just panicked so it is Westcot who are dealing with this, but I haven't heard anything from them.

Would asking Arrow for a default notice not make them aware I had received the letter or can I say I noticed on my credit report.

As far as I can remember the PPI thing was added to cover me if I was made unemployed, off sick, unable to work. I was signed off, got the form from them, filled it in and sent it back after paying for my Dr to fill in the report. They sent me a couple of bills after this and I phoned and explained and was told, OK don't worry about this, it will get sorted out when the PPI paperwork goes through the system, then nothing and now being ignored.

Lowell's, only address I can give is the website one also.

Limitation Act 1980 only applies to residents of England & Wales. If you are resident in Scotland the limitation period is 5 years and comes under

The Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973 Part 1, Section 6

“If, after the appropriate date, an obligation to which this section applies (an appropriate debt) has subsisted for a continuous period of five years-
(a) without any relevant claim having been made in relation to the obligation, and
(b) without the subsistence of the obligation having been relevantly acknowledged,
then as from the expiration of that period the obligation shall be extinguished…”

If M & S sent a default notice, it is 14 days from the date of the default notice which is the appropriate date. If they did not, they still own the account and have terminated it unlawfully.

You have obviously checked your credit file. What is the default date on the credit file and when did you send them your last payment? If your last payment was after the default date, that sets the limitation clock back to the beginning as it were. The statute of limitations would run from whichever was the later, last payment or default date.

I believe assignments for unsecured agreements under Scottish law are covered by

Transmission of Moveable Property (Scotland) Act 1862

2 Certified copy to be delivered to person or persons to whom intimation may in any case be requisite.

An assignation shall be validly intimated (1) by a notary public delivering a copy thereof, certified as correct, to the person or persons to whom intimation may in any case be requisite, or (2) by the holder of such assignation, or any person authorized by him, transmitting a copy thereof certified as correct by post to such person; and (in the first case) a certificate by such notary public in or as nearly as may be in the form set forth in schedule C. hereto annexed, and (in the second case) a written acknowledgment by the person to whom such copy may have been transmitted by post as aforesaid of the receipt of the copy, shall be sufficient evidence of such intimation having been duly made: Provided always, that if the deed or instrument containing such assignation shall likewise contain other conveyances or declarations of trust purposes, it shall not be necessary to deliver or transmit a full copy thereof, but only a copy of such part thereof as respects the subject matter of such assignation.

This opens up a whole new can of worms, he he.

How do you intimate an assignation? The point is important because Scots law retains intimation as a constitutive requirement for transfer. Few other legal systems still do. In modern Scottish practice the standard method is for the assignee to send the debtor a notice signed by the cedent notifying the debtor of the assignation and instructing the debtor into which bank account payment should be made. The notice is usually sent by recorded delivery post. The practice is, however, problematic. It does not comply with the Transmission of Moveable Property (Scotland) Act 1862. The 1862 Act allows intimation to be made by posting a certified true copy of the assignation to the debtor. The 1862 Act is, admittedly, permissive rather than prescriptive. But there is no solid authority for the standard practice.
Source: Anderson, R.G. (2008) Intimation 1862-2008. Edinburgh Law Review, 12 (2). pp. 275-280. ISSN 1364-9809

In determining whether a security interest has been validly created in accordance with the requirements of Scots law, the key considerations are whether the security transaction has been carried out publicly or in secret and whether the requirements of legal validity have been met and, unlike under English law, the concept of equity is irrelevant.

The absence of equity in Scots law means that the intention of the parties is irrelevant; the creditor either has a valid security or nothing at all. Scots law recognises five main types of security which can be taken over moveable assets: pledge, assignation, lien, hypothec (which is rarely used) and the floating charge.

In this case Arrow Global and Westcot are claiming assignment, so........unless the assignment has been intimated, it's not valid is my reading. But, my understanding is that modern practice has not been tested in a court yet though. I could be wrong on this.

Assignation in Security

• Suitable for transferring the borrower’s rights to incorporeal moveable property such as book debts and IP rights to a lender.
• Any such assignation must be intimated otherwise the assignation will be ineffective.
• Impractical where numerous debts are being financed and notice requires to be given to a large number of debtors.

Source: Morton-Fraser.com (Library, Securing Moveable Assets in Scotland)

This is all probably moot because the agreement is governed by English law and am not sure how this would apply to chasing a Scottish alleged debtor. However, If you live in Scotland you can only be sued in Scotland regardless of the law governing the initial contract for unsecured credit agreements. Look up govanlc.com it (backslash) suedinengland, it will give you the full details regarding jurisdictions etc. (sorry again, can't post links yet, grrrrr!!!!!)

You are not admitting to anything by writing to Westcot or Arrow Global asking for the CCA, default notice and original Notice of Assignment. Also ask them for proof the original Notice of Assignment was sent registered post, under English law (which governs the agreement of M & S Cards (Section 7 subsection g)), if they cannot provide this it is a bad assignment and cannot be enforced.

Again, this is also why you MUST use the words "alleged account" and not "debt", alleged account admits nothing, debt could be construed as an admittance. Asking for a copy CCA or default notice also admits nothing, you are merely asking them prove that you owe them the money. You wouldn't hand over £20 to a stranger who just walked up to you and said "you owe me £20" would you?

Important to note though and I will amend my original post, Statute Barred does not apply if the creditor has a CCJ (County Court Judgement) against you for this. If they have not enforced it for over 6 years though they cannot just decide to start doing so, they will need the court's permission.

With regard to the PPI, you could try writing to Capital One again stating that is they do not respond this will be a Financial ombudsman complaint. Or, just approach the F.O directly, however, giving Capital One a last chance to respond would look better should you need to go to the F.O.

fatbelly

Dominus - get a third party on board to help you. Not someone who charges a fee. CAB, or National Debtline.

How much debt do you have in total, roughly?

How much can you pay to them each month in total?

Dominuus

I will never go near CAB again, they would not help me with my ESA and DLA appeal. Luckily the council have a great service who helped me with these and I won.

I owe approx £5000 in total, some I fully admit I am due and some I deny.

I juts got a letter from Capital 1, well I say letter, it was just a DD mandate and nothing else, so it is in the bin.

I could afford £50pm, as a couple we could afford more.

When/if they reply would it be better if able to to just try and pay them off to clear file or if they are not doing as they should to ignore them?