Care Parking - Not using POFA (!) - Do I need to bother about POPLA?

Anhunedd

Hi,

As a keeper, I've had a PCN from Care Parking (aka Anchor) and having done some research, the closest relevant previous thread I've found is on thread 4793427 here

(sorry - I can't post full links due to being a new member)

In that thread there is a dropbox link to a PCN notice which is identical to mine. Post #19.

The conclusion was that they are not even bothering with POFA and relying on the old system of trying to bully the driver details out of the keeper by threatening ever increasing amounts of charges. I've had a copy of the ticket forwarded to me, and that doesn't mention POFA or Keeper Liability either, merely the fact that DVLA details may be obtained. The thread then unfortunately stops just as it was getting interesting.

Now, that thread was dealing with a case which had already progressed past any possible POPLA appeal, hence my question.

Do I even bother outlining any appeals on the usual grounds (GPEOL / Signage) at this stage, or even mention POPLA? Because as far as I can tell, they can only pursue the driver in this case. Therefore all I should do is to wait until the 56 day POFA window expires (so they can't suddenly change to that) and send them a letter telling them as they have not followed POFA, they have no recourse against me as the keeper and to leave me alone.

Or can they claim they've followed POFA even though they never mention it or keeper liability, and I will be stronger building my case now?

Thanks!

Redx

read this newbies thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

not using POFA 2012 doesnt mean they cannot use those old rules, just means they cannot use POFA rules as well as the old rules

I will let others explain any differences or what you may need to do, but suffice to say its been discussed on here many times already, so its certainly one method of winning at popla

Anhunedd

Yep - read the stickies. Just wondered if my case was any different.

So basically, appeal on the fact they are circumventing the provisions of POFA 2012 and therefore I have no liability, either for the charge or to inform them of the driver. Then add if they do not accept this, then I will pursue this complaint at a POPLA appeal (and ask for a code) along with the "holy trinity" of

1) this charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) you do not have the authority or permission to issue invoices at this location

Then add the "I'll charge you for my time when I win" section. (Does anyone actually follow this up?)

Bonza.

While I was at it, I complained to Companies House about this company not actually putting the correct info on their "invoices". I'm not the first to do that - maybe eventually they'll get reprimanded.

Redx

if you read this thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4878909 just below yours, you can see that some people DO follow it up, especially that biker paul mentioned on page 2

its fair to say that few people do this at the moment , but it would be better if more people fought fire with fire, and invoices with invoices

so yes you do appeal along the lines you indicated , and if POFA 2012 does not apply then I believe they can only pursue the driver and not the keeper, and you would not be obliged to name the driver so I suppose popla would have to rule in your favour for those reasons

hope that is correct as its the basis of some appeals here to apcoa about railway car parks etc in some cases

4consumerrights

Airports and railways etc are different due to byelaws and relevant land clauses.

However PPCs can also use a dual system for obtaining keeper details from the DVLA - (explained on Bigtoe99 thread just now)

Keeper liability can only be pursued providing certain criteria and information is declared and time scales adhered to.

PPCs not using keeper liability only have the option to pursue the driver and there is no statutory time limit for sending such a notice. They will try and word it as though you should name the driver if you weren't on the day. POPLA is still used to appeal the charge and all appeals in this instance MUST just be in the registered keeper mode and keep wording the driver in third party only.


If you have the chance to use POPLA you may as well as a the PPC/landowner can pursue a debt for up to 6 years.

And of course complain to retailer - useful to do every time in tandom with appealing. Again though if you do this in your case - keep in registered keeper mode in case they pass on your letter if you were also the driver to the ppc.

Coupon-mad

Anhunedd wrote: »

Yep - read the stickies. Just wondered if my case was any different.

So basically, appeal on the fact they are circumventing the provisions of POFA 2012 and therefore I have no liability, either for the charge or to inform them of the driver. Then add if they do not accept this, then I will pursue this complaint at a POPLA appeal (and ask for a code) along with the "holy trinity" of

1) this charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) you do not have the authority or permission to issue invoices at this location

Then add the "I'll charge you for my time when I win" section. (Does anyone actually follow this up?)

Bonza.

While I was at it, I complained to Companies House about this company not actually putting the correct info on their "invoices". I'm not the first to do that - maybe eventually they'll get reprimanded.

When you get to POPLA stage you can use the paragraph in post #4 here to cover the 'no keeper liability' point:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64517032#Comment_64517032


As yours was a windscreen ticket at first (I think it was?) then that's why I have linked that particular example which cites paragraph 8 (rather than paragraph 9 which is about postal PCNs).


HTH

Anhunedd

Although I'll keep going down the usual route - with the help of a friend who was able to take some pictures at the site, I can now report their signage REALLY isn't compliant. The sign at the entry (which can be seen on Google street view - Steam Mill Street, Chester - it hasn't changed since) doesn't have any info on it at all.

No mention of Care Parking, no charges, no BPA logo. And it's on the left hand side, so a driver couldn't easily see it, and it isn't lit.

Anhunedd

Oh, one more question, as Care Parking / Anchor is registered with the BPA they are required to use POPLA, correct? I've read the code of practice and it seems to say so.

So I might do my first stage appeal to Care Parking and not actually mention POPLA myself, and see if they send such a reference without prompting. Then if they fail, report them to the BPA.

They certainly haven't mentioned it anywhere yet.

Redx

correct

its one way of doing it , not everyone asks for a popla code in their soft appeal , but a refusal should contain one

bod1467

Just so it's clear ... POFA and POPLA are not inextricably linked. You can use the POPLA appeal route without the PPC having followed POFA rules, provided the PPC is a BPA member.

Anhunedd

Well, this is an interesting development. I requested information from DVLA regarding when and how my details had been requested.

To start with, they've sent me a copy of the form Anchor used to request my details for the wrong car, on the wrong date, in the wrong location. Now, I'm sure that's a DVLA mistake, which I will pursue independently as a Data Protection breach.

However, that form contains two things of note:

1. They have to list their ATA (British Parking Association in this case) membership and expiry date. That is down as expired on 30/06/13.

2. They have to list their Data Protection registration number and expiry date. That is down as expired on 20/01/13.

In both cases, DVLA have ticked the form, presumably to confirm they have checked the validity, and yet even though it clearly shows both items as expired, they've still issued the details.

Now, of course this is actually on a form that isn't even for my case, but I would assume they just bulk copy it in each case. So I reckon in this case, DVLA are breaching the rules.

DVLA also sent me a copy of the letter that Anchor sends as a cover. That mentions various points to justify the release of details, (there were signs, there was a ticket etc.) but one is

"The Contract is signed by both parties."

Is that even remotely valid?