Council Tax Band Challenge - Where Do I Go From Here?

Leodogger

I challenged our council tax band when we bought our property in October 2013 after I found out the neighbour plus several other identical properties in my streets were in a lower tax band and gave my reasons to the Valuation Office plus the evidence of other properties council tax bands I found on my local council tax band web site for same size and style properties in my immediate street.

I received a response telling me that my council tax band was correct, even though I had checked following the price we paid when we moved in recently with what it was worth in 1991 as suggested by Martin Lewis on sites such as Zoopla and Rightmove and it said that our bungalow was worth £50,000. The Valuation Office said they didn't use these sources for valuations of properties and gave various excuses for not rebanding including the following:

Properties I had listed were probably over different borders of the area with a different price band.

Next door neighbour's tax band was probably a mistake and they would be challenging this.

Our valuation I had obtained was incorrect and when I challenged their figures they were using they said firstly they got their valuations from HMRC. When I disputed this they passed me to someone more senior who said they based their valuations on house sale prices given to them by solicitors. I checked this with my conveyancing solicitor who said no they didn't provide house sales prices as they were far too busy to provide such information to the Valuation Office.

Basicly I was told lies but where do I go from here as I can't categorically state the exact price my property would have been worth in 1991 ?

Do I still have a case for council tax band revaluation ?

lincroft1710

JWhite wrote: »

When I disputed this they passed me to someone more senior who said they based their valuations on house sale prices given to them by solicitors. I checked this with my conveyancing solicitor who said no they didn't provide house sales prices as they were far too busy to provide such information to the Valuation Office.

Basicly I was told lies but where do I go from here as I can't categorically state the exact price my property would have been worth in 1991 ?

Do I still have a case for council tax band revaluation ?

When land or property is sold, the buyer's solicitor sends details to the Land Registry who download this info to the VOA. Previously this info was sent to the Stamp Duty Office who forwarded a carbon copy to the VOA. Since 1910 they have received millions of these documents.

The VOA did not tell you lies, let us hope your solicitor's knowledge of conveyancing law is better than knowing where documents he/she completes on your behalf are sent.

You will have the opportunity to go to a Valuation Tribunal, and the VOA will send you sales evidence which they believe support their case, and will present at Tribunal. You can present your evidence, and the Tribunal will determine the band on the strength of the evidence presented to them.

Leodogger

lincroft1710 wrote: »

When land or property is sold, the buyer's solicitor sends details to the Land Registry who download this info to the VOA. Previously this info was sent to the Stamp Duty Office who forwarded a carbon copy to the VOA. Since 1910 they have received millions of these documents.

The VOA did not tell you lies, let us hope your solicitor's knowledge of conveyancing law is better than knowing where documents he/she completes on your behalf are sent.

You will have the opportunity to go to a Valuation Tribunal, and the VOA will send you sales evidence which they believe support their case, and will present at Tribunal. You can present your evidence, and the Tribunal will determine the band on the strength of the evidence presented to them.

Yes but how do they arrive at their valuation as at 1991? As I say I got mine from various sites which work out by backdating the current sold price to 1991. How do the VOA arrive at theirs, if they take the sold figure as a starting point? I am thinking of going to the library and getting evidence of sales when the properties were first sold in 1967 and then working it out from that but I would still have to base it on a site like Nationwide House Calculations etc. which the VOA say they don't recognise as valid evidence. The Land Registry apparently don't keep evidence of sold prices going back that far and even I don't have the sold price on my Title Deed sent to me by my solicitor.

By the way, my solicitor obviously sent the documents to the Land Registry. She was answering the information I was given by the VOA which was "we obtain pricing information from conveyancing solicitors when they have sold a property" which of course as you say, and my solicitor confirmed, they don't. That was their exact words.

lincroft1710

JWhite wrote: »

Yes but how do they arrive at their valuation as at 1991? As I say I got mine from various sites which work out by backdating the current sold price to 1991. How do the VOA arrive at theirs, if they take the sold figure as a starting point? I am thinking of going to the library and getting evidence of sales when the properties were first sold in 1967 and then working it out from that but I would still have to base it on a site like Nationwide House Calculations etc. which the VOA say they don't recognise as valid evidence. The Land Registry apparently don't keep evidence of sold prices going back that far and even I don't have the sold price on my Title Deed sent to me by my solicitor.

By the way, my solicitor obviously sent the documents to the Land Registry. She was answering the information I was given by the VOA which was "we obtain pricing information from conveyancing solicitors when they have sold a property" which of course as you say, and my solicitor confirmed, they don't. That was their exact words.

The VOA value a dwelling by looking at 1991 sales of dwellings as near as possible in size, type, age and location as the one they are trying to value. 20 years of CT means that there have been many appeals and so the levels of value for most dwellings are now well established. From experience, house price calculators are inaccurate, the worst case I came across was undervaluing 1991 prices by 25%, average is about 10%.

The VOA do obtain the info from the solicitors, because it is the information the solicitor provides. Although the solicitor does not send it directly to the VOA, it is still the info they provide. And again, from experience, solicitors do make mistakes on these forms.

Leodogger

lincroft1710 wrote: »

The VOA value a dwelling by looking at 1991 sales of dwellings as near as possible in size, type, age and location as the one they are trying to value. 20 years of CT means that there have been many appeals and so the levels of value for most dwellings are now well established. From experience, house price calculators are inaccurate, the worst case I came across was undervaluing 1991 prices by 25%, average is about 10%.

The VOA do obtain the info from the solicitors, because it is the information the solicitor provides. Although the solicitor does not send it directly to the VOA, it is still the info they provide. And again, from experience, solicitors do make mistakes on these forms.

Well my solicitor made no mistakes as far as I can see.

As for valuations made by VOA, if what you say is correct, how is it that the semi houses opposite me are 3 bed, 2 downstairs living rooms and garages, front and back gardens and are in the same band as our semi 2 bed, 1 living room, no garage property. Also there is a 4 bed property just down the road which is also the same tax band. It is fair to say that many properties have been extended and never revalued but when you have a complete street of identical properties and some are Band B and some are Band C with houses opposite twice the size also band C, there is something wrong.

Also I would hazard a guess that there is nothing used as accurate as the system you describe. I know this because I successfully challenged the band in our last property for a complete estate of 22 properties all banded in the wrong band and 3 of the residents out of those 22 had appealed previously and been turned down for a rebanding. It was only when I provided the evidence of the larger properties in the same street that had been sold time and time again for twice the price of our properties and they were twice the size, that they finally capitulated and said they would be rebanded. Really there cannot be a system as you described, otherwise why would 4 properties identical to ours be in Band B and ours along with 40 or so properties also the same size along with ours in band C. I think they just hope you will give up trying to appeal the Band to save them the bother of coming up with correct evidence !

I will be checking with the local library for historic house sales.

lincroft1710

JWhite wrote: »

Well my solicitor made no mistakes as far as I can see.

Never said she did, a mistake on details of a 2013 sale won't cause a dwelling to be incorrectly banded, a mistake on a 1991 sale, could have resulted in many properties being incorrectly banded.

As for valuations made by VOA, if what you say is correct, how is it that the semi houses opposite me are 3 bed, 2 downstairs living rooms and garages, front and back gardens and are in the same band as our semi 2 bed, 1 living room, no garage property.

One can be at the top of the band, one at the bottom. There are only 8 bands, so there are going to be an awful lot of different dwellings in the same band.


Also there is a 4 bed property just down the road which is also the same tax band. It is fair to say that many properties have been extended and never revalued but when you have a complete street of identical properties and some are Band B and some are Band C with houses opposite twice the size also band C, there is something wrong.

Would agree there is something wrong, 4 bed may have been extended by current occupier and thus band can't be increased, or just undervalued. If the properties in the 2 bands are truly identical then Band Cs could be overvalued, or Band Cs undervalued

Also I would hazard a guess that there is nothing used as accurate as the system you describe.

For 12 years of my 35 year VOA career I settled thousands of CT appeals and approved the banding of several thousand properties using the methods I described. My many colleagues used the same methods. The Valuation Tribunal expected the VOA to provide sales evidence to support a band and were very critical when (on the very rare occasion) it was not.

I successfully challenged the band in our last property for a complete estate of 22 properties all banded in the wrong band and 3 of the residents out of those 22 had appealed previously and been turned down for a rebanding. It was only when I provided the evidence of the larger properties in the same street that had been sold time and time again for twice the price of our properties and they were twice the size, that they finally capitulated and said they would be rebanded. in Band B and ours along with 40 or so properties also the same size along with ours in band C.

If you have already successfully challenged a CT banding then why have you started this thread?

I think they just hope you will give up trying to appeal the Band to save them the bother of coming up with correct evidence !

There is probably some truth in that as the VOA have drastically reduced the number of offices and staff, but as I said you have the right to a Tribunal, so they have to provide evidence.

I will be checking with the local library for historic house sales.

If you're looking at newspaper ads bear in mind, they're only asking prices and the sale may not have occurred until several months after the ad

The following sets out how the VOA valued dwellings for the introduction of CT

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/Manuals/CouncilTaxManual/council_tax_man_s1/c-ct-man-sect1-pt2.html#P73_919

Leodogger

lincroft1710 wrote: »

The following sets out how the VOA valued dwellings for the introduction of CT

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/Manuals/CouncilTaxManual/council_tax_man_s1/c-ct-man-sect1-pt2.html#P73_919

"If you have already successfully challenged a CT banding then why have you started this thread?"

Because I moved house !

Leodogger

lincroft1710 wrote: »

The following sets out how the VOA valued dwellings for the introduction of CT

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publications/Manuals/CouncilTaxManual/council_tax_man_s1/c-ct-man-sect1-pt2.html#P73_919

The key phrase in this document is

"Agency was responsible for the completion of the exercise and was assisted in its task by outside contractors.

Agents drove down the streets and took photos of the "typical type of house in each street and banded all properties in the street together. therefore 2 bed properties were bundled into the same group as 3 bed and as in the case of new properties that were built AFTER 1991, they were assumed to be in the same council tax band and banded accordingly which is why our appeal at the last property succeeded. The properties (2 bed bungalows) were built in a cul-de-sac off the main street of 3 bed semis and were put in the same tax band. We were living in a 2 bed terraced bungalow with communal facilities and were put in Band C, why ? It was obvious when I sent the evidence in of other properties in the street that the band we were in then was completely inappropriate, yet 2 previous attempts by the elderly residents (over 60's development) were turned down. If they had been assessed properly when they were built there is no way they would have been put in the same council tax band as 3 bed semis with private gardens and garages. Therefore no assessor went in and because the VOA was too lazy to get them assessed properly those residents were paying the wrong council tax for 22 yrs !! These were elderly residents, some living alone on very low incomes. That is why I decided to appeal it.

Now in this property where we are, I believe the same thing has happened, they were all lumped in with the 3 bed properties and it was presumed they were all Band C. Nobody went in to assess them after they were built in 1967, otherwise why would semi detached properties some selling for well over £200,000 at the moment be lumped together with bungalows selling for anything between£115-£140,000 max for a 2 bed, some with no garages like ours and tiny gardens?

lincroft1710

JWhite wrote: »

The key phrase in this document is

"Agency was responsible for the completion of the exercise and was assisted in its task by outside contractors.

Agents drove down the streets and took photos of the "typical type of house in each street and banded all properties in the street together.

A generalisation, which from personal experience is not wholly correct. The agents had details of the vast majority of properties, because from 1951 to 1989 the VOA had inspected virtually every property in England and Wales at least once. When I joined the VOA in 1970, in the office I worked, 4 people had been engaged in 1968 to visit properties and update records so that the correct info was held for the 1973 Rating revaluation.

The VOA did do sample checks of agents' work and throughout the country several firms were "sacked".

therefore 2 bed properties were bundled into the same group as 3 bed and as in the case of new properties that were built AFTER 1991, they were assumed to be in the same council tax band and banded accordingly which is why our appeal at the last property succeeded.

As domestic rating ceased in 1990, VOA did not inspect dwellings from the beginning of 1990, therefore they had few details of dwellings built between 1990 and 1992. From 1993 new dwellings were (and continue to be) inspected as do dwellings which have been extended and then sold.

The properties (2 bed bungalows) were built in a cul-de-sac off the main street of 3 bed semis and were put in the same tax band. We were living in a 2 bed terraced bungalow with communal facilities and were put in Band C, why ? It was obvious when I sent the evidence in of other properties in the street that the band we were in then was completely inappropriate, yet 2 previous attempts by the elderly residents (over 60's development) were turned down. If they had been assessed properly when they were built there is no way they would have been put in the same council tax band as 3 bed semis with private gardens and garages. Therefore no assessor went in and because the VOA was too lazy to get them assessed properly those residents were paying the wrong council tax for 22 yrs !! These were elderly residents, some living alone on very low incomes. That is why I decided to appeal it.

Now in this property where we are, I believe the same thing has happened, they were all lumped in with the 3 bed properties and it was presumed they were all Band C. Nobody went in to assess them after they were built in 1967,

They would have been inspected soon after they were built.

otherwise why would semi detached properties some selling for well over £200,000 at the moment be lumped together with bungalows selling for anything between£115-£140,000 max for a 2 bed, some with no garages like ours and tiny gardens?

In many areas 2 semi detached bungalows were fetching similar money to 3 bed semi detached houses in 1991. My late father's 2 bed semi det bungalow was in Band D, but was reduced to a Band C, many 3 bed semis in the vicinity are in a Band C.

....................

lincroft1710

JWhite wrote: »

"If you have already successfully challenged a CT banding then why have you started this thread?"

Because I moved house !

Obviously!!!

My point being that as you were successful in getting the band of your previous home reduced and know how to go about this and seemingly know a lot more than many who post here asking advice, what points to make etc., why do you need any help?

Leodogger

lincroft1710 wrote: »

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With regard to your last paragraph, this really depends on the square metre size of the land your property stands on if a bungalow. It is true to say that some 2 bed bungalows would be in the same band as a 3 bed semi but only if the bungalow was sitting on a far larger plot than the semi and this is where the valuation system falls down because the size of the plot on which our bungalows sit is about 1/2 of the size of the 3 bed semis opposite, hence the much lower sales price when they come to market. I would stick my neck out and say that this development was never assessed for the Council Tax Band when built. Knowing public sector as I do, the majority of departments can't be bothered to save taxpayer's money by getting anything right. Sorry but its true, I worked in the public sector for many years so know by experience the incompetence of some departments, my sister also worked in the planning/highways dept and she said much the same thing about the management. Nothing personal in this remark, you may have been a really hard worker but the management of many depts. leaves a lot to be desired.