Fence ownership issues

pops5588

Once again I'm afraid we need to call upon the advice of the MSE members!!

We completed on a property in August. When we originally viewed the property we could see that, as a mid-terraced house, the right side of the property had an extremely deteriorated fence and was bordering on unstable. We decided to proceed on the property and when we got to the point of finding out from the vendor's solicitors who was responsible for which fence we saw on the paperwork that:

"when facing the property from the road, the owner is responsible for the boundaries to the left and the back, the neighbour is responsible for the boundary to the right". Based on this information we decided to proceed as the fences to the left and back were in good condition and no neighbourly dispute over the deteriorating fence was listed on the paperwork.

If we had known that we were responsible for the bad fence, we would have had to renegotiate the price as it is clearly a big job and would have taken a fair bit of money.

A few months later, and as everyone on here no doubt knows, there have been a few storms. The first storm in October led to an entire panel coming out of the fence on the right. The next day the neighbour in the right-side property came out and replaced the missing panel as a temporary fix as it is the posts that are unstable. His behaviour did not lead us to believe that there was any doubt over who was responsible for the fence.

This replaced panel has been sufficient in keeping the properties separate but after the latest storm the entirety of the right fence has come down including posts, panels and all sorts of debris. A singular panel also came out of the left-side fence (the one that we were aware we were responsible for).

We approached our neighbour on the left to let them know that we were aware we were liable for this repair to the left fence, but that we may not be able to attend to it for a few days due to the Christmas period. He appeared surprised that we thought we were liable for this boundary and believed that we were actually liable for our right-side fence. Either way, he was very reasonable and said that he was expecting a valuation in the next week in order to re-mortgage and that he would take on the job himself as long as he would be allowed to have access to our property.

However this situation has left us questioning the validity of our paperwork which stated the boundaries which we were responsible for. We are going to go to the right side neighbour tomorrow to see whether they also believe that we are the ones who are responsible for the decrepit fence, but in the meantime I am here asking for advice on what we do incase it transpires that we were misled during the purchase and mis-informed in terms of which boundaries we were responsible for. Are we protected in this scenario?

dotdash79

We've got this issue at the moment having lost fences panels on both sides. I've spoken to both neighbours and said we will share the cost of making good the damage.

The way I see it is that by offering to help pay you will get something you like rather than risk getting something you hate.

It's not worth the effort in pursuing about being mis sold as your reads might say one thing and next doors another.

Ulfar

Check the land registry paperwork it may shed some light.

I have a neighbour who tried to bodge their side and it looked awful, also didn't stand up to the winds.

I have put my own fence up just inside my border, using concrete posts, harris rail and feather edge boarding.

It does take some work, the hardest being digging out holes to concrete the posts in but it is so worth it. It looks nice and has faced the latest set of weather with no problems. It isn't as expensive as you think.

jellie

The responsibility is to maintain the boundary, which doesn't necessarily have to be with a fence.

If your neighbour wanted to take down the dodgy fence and replace it with chicken wire they can do. Unless their deeds specifically state that they must maintain the boundary with a fence.

G_M

As jellie says, the owner of the fence has no obligation to maintain, repair or replace it. It is HIS fence. If he's happy to have a derelict fence- his choice!

There are then two further, separate, issues: ownership of the boundary and ownership of the fence.

The fence is owned by whoever bought it, paid for it, erected it. Whether they are allowed to erect it on the boundary depends on ownership of the boundary. (anyone can erect a fence anywhere on their own land, ie 6" inside the boundary).

Ownership of boundary is notoriously difficult. The LR Title, or the Plan, might specify, but usually not.

The builder's original plans might specify.

There might be a common understanding locally ie that all owners in the street own the left (or right) side.

You do not say where on the 'paperwork' you saw the statement you quote - perhaps it was just the owner's understanding. If so, unless you can prove they deliberately misled you, you would have no case against them.

Lord_Baltimore

Posted by our Land Registry member in an earlier thread:

There is no legal foundation for the belief that boundary features on the right (or on the left) as you look at the property from the front are automatically owned by the owner of the property. Nor is it the case that the post and rails of a fence are necessarily on the owner’s side. -

See more at: http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/boundaries#sthash.qXKkkeB2.dpuf

pops5588

Well we already know that the property on the right has sold stc and left-side neighbour said that the right-side neighbour is moving out in February and doesn't intend to do anything to the fence in the meantime which is fine, it's not urgent as it's only a matter of appearance really.

The paperwork that the quote was on was filled out on the property details questionnaire, on the front it says:
Please complete this form carefully, if you are unsure of how to answer the questions please give us a call to discuss.
We will send this form to the buyer's solicitor and it will be seen by the buyer who is entitled to rely on the information.
It is very important that your answers are correct because the buyer is entitled to rely on them in deciding whether to go ahead. Incorrect or incomplete information given to the buyer direct through us or your selling agent or even mentioned to the buyer in conversation between you, may mean that the buyer can claim compensation from you or even refuse to complete the purchase.

This paperwork includes the Fixtures, Fittings and Contents, Service Providers etc.

It's frustrating, I know boundaries are a lot more fluid a concept than a washing machine, but it seems a bit rubbish that if the ex-vendor had put down on the same form that he was leaving behind a washing machine and then had taken it we would have a clear cut case. We did really rely on this information.

Anyway, thanks for all the input. I will have a bit of a delve and see what I can find out about the background of the fence and previous repairs etc. and will check the land registry stuff too.

Richard_Webster

Please remember that there is an important distinction between ownership of a boundary feature and a legal obligation to maintain it.

It is only if there are covenants requiring you to maintain a particular fence that you have to do so.

If you merely own it then if it falls down you do not have to replace it.

Even if there is a covenant, if the house has changed hands several times since it was first sold it will be very difficult indeed for a neighbour actually to enforce such a covenant in a court.

aelitaman

Apologies for a little thread hijack but if the neighbour owns the fence and in its bad state starts to lean onto my property can I legally push it back, like I can legally cut overhanging branches as long as I give the branches back to my neighbour?

Road_Hog

aelitaman wrote: »

Apologies for a little thread hijack but if the neighbour owns the fence and in its bad state starts to lean onto my property can I legally push it back, like I can legally cut overhanging branches as long as I give the branches back to my neighbour?

If the fence is encroaching on your property or looks like it may damage your property, then you are entitled to take remedial action.


As with all things legal, it is best to ask permission first, I,E, give the owner the opportunity to put it right himself. And secondly, all things legal may need to go to court to have a final decision.


If you want to be safe, send your neighbour a signed for letter asking him to sort it. Then if it all goes tits up, you've covered yourself.

Lord_Baltimore

Road_Hog wrote: »

If the fence is encroaching on your property or looks like it may damage your property, then you are entitled to take remedial action.


As with all things legal, it is best to ask permission first, I,E, give the owner the opportunity to put it right himself. And secondly, all things legal may need to go to court to have a final decision.


If you want to be safe, send your neighbour a signed for letter asking him to sort it. Then if it all goes tits up, you've covered yourself.

.....and take a few pictures too. You can't beat a bit of visual evidence.