Worried about UC and self employment

iammumtoone

Morlock wrote: »

However, there are plenty of businesses making billions each year and the employees are subsidised by the taxpayer. But that's just fine.

But those people are actually working. The problem is people took the route of being self employed to avoid signing on, they never actually did much/put much effort into it. I am not saying the OP is one of those but unfortunately they ruined it for all the genuine people who wish to make a go at being self employed.

Takeaway_Addict

M.Johnson wrote: »

Are you saying my only option is to join the dole lines?

Nobody will keep trying to get their business successful if they are getting less than just being unemploed like on jas.

Only those who are short sighted would go with your views, yes you might earn less in the shortfall but you could earn far more in the long run

dktreesea

Plenty of businesses run at a loss. Or they run at a very small profit. No one has to earn at least the NMW for their expected (for benefits purposes) working hours per week. But under UC any benefits granted will be calculated on the higher of actual profits or NMW for the expected working hours.

So say you already work 16 hours a week and are expected to work 35 hours a week, e.g. you have children but they are all over 13. So you "income" for UC, under current proposals, would be whatever the actual income is for the 16 hours a week (say £100 a week) plus 35 hours - 16 hours = 19 hours at the NMW or the profits from the business, whichever is higher.

And yes, there will be self employed people, especially couples working a business with children, who could get hit hard by this proposal, particularly if they are both available for work for 35 hours a week. Say they are declaring £5000 profit a year. Deeming rules will make that around £20k a year. Their benefits could drop like a stone, maybe by more than £10k a year.

I don't think any self employed person chooses to work for peanuts - we'd all like to be making £100k a year. But the current benefit system doesn't exactly push people to take the risk and try harder/invest more. Hopefully UC will give people a push to build their businesses up into something stronger, rather than letting them meander along in a marginally profitable way.

M.Johnson_2

Unemployment numbers are coming down, this is what the government wants so soon interest rates can go back up to normal. If UC pushes everyone who is on WTC into the unemployment numbers it will be a disaster. I can see UC being delayed or changed a lot.

Takeaway_Addict

M.Johnson wrote: »

Unemployment numbers are coming down, this is what the government wants so soon interest rates can go back up to normal. If UC pushes everyone who is on WTC into the unemployment numbers it will be a disaster. I can see UC being delayed or changed a lot.

Hopefully lowered even further.

dktreesea

M.Johnson wrote: »

Unemployment numbers are coming down, this is what the government wants so soon interest rates can go back up to normal. If UC pushes everyone who is on WTC into the unemployment numbers it will be a disaster. I can see UC being delayed or changed a lot.

Only for statistics. The self employed would just be getting the same as they get now, but would be subject to conditionality as they would be claim as unemployed rather than self employed.

I question whether they would do that just to claim what they get now, and jump through the DWP's hoops, but keep running their business on the side, in the black economy. Good luck to all the complaince officers charged with looking out for an extra 700,000 or so "previously self employed, now unemployed but could still be working on the side" people who might be scamming the system come the advent of U.C.

M.Johnson_2

dktreesea wrote: »

Only for statistics. The self employed would just be getting the same as they get now, but would be subject to conditionality as they would be claim as unemployed rather than self employed.

I question whether they would do that just to claim what they get now, and jump through the DWP's hoops, but keep running their business on the side, in the black economy. Good luck to all the complaince officers charged with looking out for an extra 700,000 or so "previously self employed, now unemployed but could still be working on the side" people who might be scamming the system come the advent of U.C.

So can you be self employed and on conditionality?

I thought no after UC? If you are self employed at all, you will be assumed to be making NMW x35hrs, even if you are making no profit to start with?