£20 penalty fare/fine south west trains

jamels2

hi all

i got on the train at esher station as it was pulling up literally as i arrived on the platform. i had cash on me and was hoping to pay a ticket person on the train, or if i didnt see one, pay on exit at waterloo.

i've done this before on first great western without a problem, it's called excess fares, as you are exiting at your destination.

however to my surprise, as i approached staff at waterloo near the barriers asking to pay for a ticket, i was told i will be fine for not having a valid ticket.

they took my details and didnt want any money there but say i have 21 days to pay £20 and i can appeal if i want.

as i was willing and asked to pay for the ticket to cover my journey , is that any defence? i honestly wanted to pay the 6.60 for the ticket, and if i knew this would happen i would have not jumped on the first train, but waited however long for the next one and bought a ticket at esher.

any advice much appreciated!!!

The_ICT_Engineer

Try arriving at the station early, Esher is a penalty fare zone station.

From the SouthWest Trains Website http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/penalty-fares.aspx#121476

What happens if Iam late arriving at the station and do not have time to buy a ticket.?
You are still liable to a penalty fare if you travel from a penalty fare station on a penalty fare train, as it is your responsibility to leave enough time to buy your ticket.


Can I pay on the train or at my destination if I am in a rush?
Not if you are travelling from a penalty fare station on a penalty fare train. If you do you may be liable to a penalty fare.

dzug1

jamels2 wrote: »

i've done this before on first great western without a problem, it's called excess fares, as you are exiting at your destination.

There are penalty fares on FGW as well - though it does depend on the station you board at.

jamels2

thanks for the replies, so best advice is just pay it then? no point in appealing?

i just find it a bit confusing how some rail operators have different rules to others.

add the fact i was more than willing to pay on my exit.

Stigy

jamels2 wrote: »

thanks for the replies, so best advice is just pay it then? no point in appealing?

i just find it a bit confusing how some rail operators have different rules to others.

add the fact i was more than willing to pay on my exit.

Any operator that has a Penalty Fare scheme would be adhering to the same rules on how they should be applied, it just depends on where you boarded on some train companies.

Penalty Fares are meant for cases such as yours and the ONLY defences are; If an authorised person (a member of rail staff) gave you permission to board without a ticket, if there were no facilities to buy a ticket where you boarded or if there was a sign allowing you to board before buying. This is outlined in Byelw 18(3) of the National Rail Byelaws (2005).

Penalty fares are meant as a deterrent against fare evasion. If the staff believed you intended to avoid payment, they would have, or at least should have, reported you for it. This could have had much more severe consequences as you could potentially be looking at a Magistrates' Court summons.

I advise you pay it. You can appeal, but I think it would be rejected and it would be a waste of time on your part.

Guest101

Stigy wrote: »

Any operator that has a Penalty Fare scheme would be adhering to the same rules on how they should be applied, it just depends on where you boarded on some train companies.

Penalty Fares are meant for cases such as yours and the ONLY defences are; If an authorised person (a member of rail staff) gave you permission to board without a ticket, if there were no facilities to buy a ticket where you boarded or if there was a sign allowing you to board before buying. This is outlined in Byelw 18(3) of the National Rail Byelaws (2005).

Penalty fares are meant as a deterrent against fare evasion. If the staff believed you intended to avoid payment, they would have, or at least should have, reported you for it. This could have had much more severe consequences as you could potentially be looking at a Magistrates' Court summons.

I advise you pay it. You can appeal, but I think it would be rejected and it would be a waste of time on your part.

Can you explain the law regarding giving your details? Afaik rail staff have no rights of detention or arrest.

Buzby

Guest101 wrote: »

Can you explain the law regarding giving your details? Afaik rail staff have no rights of detention or arrest.

They don't - only BTP can do this, however everything else is done postally - which is why they want a DoB and address with postcode.

geordie_taxi

Guest101 wrote: »

Can you explain the law regarding giving your details? Afaik rail staff have no rights of detention or arrest.

rail staff have the right to your correct name and address and the law behind this is the railway act 1889. These are the ONLY questions you have to answer by law, any other info you give them whilst been questioned is a bonus to them and will be used against you, as railway revenue blokes are well trained in asking leading questions to secure a conviction

as to detention or arrest, railway staff have the power to ask you to stay on station premises but any physical attempt to stop you would be construed as assault and is frowned upon by management and would lead to the dismissal of the offending rail staff

british transport police can and will arrest you if they are called and available at the station

Stigy

Guest101 wrote: »

Can you explain the law regarding giving your details? Afaik rail staff have no rights of detention or arrest.

after having failed to pay your fare, s5(2) of the Regulation of railways Act 1889 dictates that you have to supply your name and address. If you refuse to supply these then you may be detained until you can be brought before some justice. This can be undertaken by any railway official and not just the Police. By detaining somebody you may need to physically restrain the person, which is also allowed just so long as you can justify the force in the long run. Staff tend not to do this as their management ten to frown upon it. It also has potential to go very wrong, very quickly.

Railway Byelaw 23(1) also makes clear that you will supply your name and/or address after an authorised person believes you to have committed any one of it's preceding byelaws.

Guest101

Thanks for clarifying.

yorkie2

jamels2 wrote: »

i got on the train at esher station as it was pulling up literally as i arrived on the platform. i had cash on me and was hoping to pay a ticket person on the train, or if i didnt see one, pay on exit at waterloo.

Many of these trains have non-commercial guards, and work on the basis that you buy before boarding. It is a very different situation to trains where buying on-board is common practice.

Notices should be displayed at station entrances stating that Penalty Fares may be charged if you board without a ticket, where Penalty Fares apply. Was that not the case at Esher?

jamels2 wrote: »

i've done this before on first great western without a problem, it's called excess fares, as you are exiting at your destination.

It's not actually an Excess fare, but I agree that you may be able to purchase such a ticket at an Excess fares window.

jamels2 wrote: »

however to my surprise, as i approached staff at waterloo near the barriers asking to pay for a ticket, i was told i will be fine for not having a valid ticket.

Did they call it a fine? They shouldn't do this, as it's merely a higher than normal charge for passengers who made a mistake (under certain circumstances) or who were in a rush, such as yourself.

jamels2 wrote: »

they took my details and didnt want any money there but say i have 21 days to pay £20 and i can appeal if i want.

I am surprised they did not accept the money there and then. Unless there was insufficient signage at Esher, I can't think what grounds for appeal you have?

jamels2 wrote: »

as i was willing and asked to pay for the ticket to cover my journey , is that any defence? i honestly wanted to pay the 6.60 for the ticket, and if i knew this would happen i would have not jumped on the first train, but waited however long for the next one and bought a ticket at esher.

The correct action for someone who is willing to pay for a ticket, but who fails to do so before they board, is a Penalty Fare.

There is no accusation that you were not willing to pay for your fare. If there was such an accusation, they would not be asking you to pay for any fare whatsoever, and would instead have taken notes, then written to you with a 'statement of intent for prosecution' letter, asking you to confirm your version of events, and depending on the available evidence, you would then be either prosecuted, or invited to pay a substantial sum to keep the matter out of court.

It is a common misconception that a Penalty Fare is a fine which should be issued to someone attempting to evade the fare, but that isn't actually the case at all. If inspectors are incorrectly referring to them as a "fine" then that only re-enforces such misconceptions.