Advice wanted - Termination of Probation period - appeal?

FBaby

Fair play filling out the forms retrospectively is obviously the norm, but that doesn't make him a thief

And thankfully for him they accepted that. However, his actions showed a lack of competence that would be expected at his level.

marybelle01

Stefficook wrote: »

Regardless of our personal situation, though I accept employers need to be able to have effective employees this seems like such an easy way for an employer to get someone out of their workplace for any old reason?!

I can't disagree - putting aside your personal circumstances, I accept that it is unfair to be able to dismiss employees for any old reason, or none, for two years. Or even (in the old days, like last year) for one year. Seems to me that if it is fair then they should be able to show that at any time. But it isn't up to me to write the law.

Having said that, I hate to say this, but the fact is that he screwed up. The size of the screw up isn't really important. I suggest it is time to accept that and move on, because there is no such thing as "it can't get any worse". It can. Sometimes it is just best to learn the lesson and take it on the chin.

FBaby

Surely if anything, this example shows that the council do respect staff by giving them ample chances to prove themselves rather than just using the law to get rid of them without any care for the employee.

It is a real pity that you/your husband didn't seek advice sooner in the process when his probation was first extended. We could have written that it was absolutely essentiel that he did to the book all the tasks writen on the plan and that was his last chance to prove that he was capable.

Unfortunately, it is too late to go back now but hopefully he will now have learnt good lessons.

Firstly, if he starts a job and feels he is not sure what he needs to do or how to go about it, be pro-active and approach your manager with clear questions and request for training.

Being given freedom with your time and being expected to manage your own workload doesn't mean that you can do what you want. If you are expected to go to meetings, you need to go. It is your responsibility to find out the dates of these meetings.

Do not EVER complete expenses before the expense actually takes place, or if you do, make sure you triple check it before submitting it.

If you are told that your performance is lacking and you will be put on a clear trajectory to improve it, stick to it NO MATTER WHAT. Don't fail to do a task and then when asked to complete it there and then, don't say that you can't because you have other commitments.

LittleVoice

marybelle01 wrote: »

(a) As I have stated - the statutory procedures were rescinded, I cannot recall exactly, but about 2008/9. And even then - you had to have the qualifying period (at that time one year) or you still couldn't claim. The procedures were ON TOP of the qualifying period, not instead of.

The procedures were rescinded as statutory but may well still form part of an individual's contract of employment if the employer issues them as such.

Though two years is required to bring a claim of unfair dismissal (other than for unlawful discriminatory reasons), a claim of wrongful dismissal can still be pursued, can it not?

marybelle01

LittleVoice wrote: »

The procedures were rescinded as statutory but may well still form part of an individual's contract of employment if the employer issues them as such.

Though two years is required to bring a claim of unfair dismissal (other than for unlawful discriminatory reasons), a claim of wrongful dismissal can still be pursued, can it not?

Even if it formed a contractual term, which wouldn't be usual, there is no quantifiable contractual loss which I believe is required for wrongful dismissal. Wrongful dismissal is things like dismissal without paying notice is it not?

Astraea_2

Hi Marybelle

It sucks, I know. So hard to work so hard and then them pick up on what you haven't done - when they didn't make your priorities clear. It happens a lot, I've been there. The world is full of bad managers, it seems. However, the law, as I understand it, is not on your side. Sadly, unless your husband has worked for the institution for more than 2 years, they don't have to do much to get rid of you - you cannot claim unfair dismissal. Let's face it, once a person has decided they don't want you, it is never hard to find a reason to dismiss you. No-one is perfect - they WILL be able to find things you are doing wrong. It is a horrible, horrible position to be in. Whatever anyone else says (I didn't read all the posts) it is miserable, and I hope that anyone who tries to make out that employees 'deserve' this because they made mistakes (and how many managers make mistakes!!) is one day in this position themselves, so they can really understand the injustice. You can checkout the government site by Googling 'employment rights uk' (I can't post the link cos I am new on here and it won't let me) but I don't think you are going to get very far. You can argue that they haven't followed their own procedures, you can try to reason with them as a matter of reasonableness, but at the end of the day, since you cannot claim unfair dismissal, it is all down to your powers of negotiation. If they are determined to get rid of your husband, I am afraid they will. Your husband may be better off thinking of how he can get a reasonable reference for his next job, and thinking what he has gained from this experience that he can put on his CV. He has clearly learned a lot and has skills he didn't at the start. He will have made useful contacts too. He needs to plan his escape. I can't tell you how many people I meet who have been through this kind of thing. It makes me furious. Tell him to hold his head up high and move on - and give him a hug from me. He has done really well. I have had my own probation extended - I wasn't actually given a reason other than they weren't sure I was the 'right person' - said they were very happy with my work, reeled off a whole list of things they were pleased with. No negatives except that I asked too many questions when we were moved into an unheated greenhouse with no drinking water available for our lunches and breaks, and though I didn't SAY anything, they realised I wasn't happy with the answers. I cried. I still have a job for the moment - but I have a feeling my cards are marked. Anyhow, I do wish you both luck.

getmore4less

sacked for the inability to format!

:rotfl::rotfl:

Dunroamin

I have no knowlege of the intricacies of the situayion but this paragraph leaped out at me.

"A couple of weeks ago, Clerk approached him close to him leaving for a commitment and stated that he had not submitted the requested worksheet for 4 weeks - this hadn't been raised during those 4 weeks. S said they would take a while and he had to leave in 20 mins - clerk stated he needed them that night. S copied his diary onto them as obviously time was short. The meetings which I mention below were in his diary and therefore copied onto the worksheets. "


Having already had his probation extended twice, it's difficult to understand how he could be so foolish as to take this attitude. Perhaps it's indicative of the wider issues?

CFC

Dunroamin wrote: »

I have no knowlege of the intricacies of the situayion but this paragraph leaped out at me.

"A couple of weeks ago, Clerk approached him close to him leaving for a commitment and stated that he had not submitted the requested worksheet for 4 weeks - this hadn't been raised during those 4 weeks. S said they would take a while and he had to leave in 20 mins - clerk stated he needed them that night. S copied his diary onto them as obviously time was short. The meetings which I mention below were in his diary and therefore copied onto the worksheets. "


Having already had his probation extended twice, it's difficult to understand how he could be so foolish as to take this attitude. Perhaps it's indicative of the wider issues?

I think that sums it up. I feel he really just wasn't ready yet for this level of job.

CFC

Astraea wrote: »

I have had my own probation extended - I wasn't actually given a reason other than they weren't sure I was the 'right person' - said they were very happy with my work, reeled off a whole list of things they were pleased with. No negatives except that I asked too many questions when we were moved into an unheated greenhouse with no drinking water available for our lunches and breaks, and though I didn't SAY anything, they realised I wasn't happy with the answers. I cried. I still have a job for the moment - but I have a feeling my cards are marked. Anyhow, I do wish you both luck.

Personally I have extended hundreds of probations and sacked a good many folk, sadly.

Astrae - it is very rare that people actually want to train up someone to do the job and then get rid of them on a whim. For one thing, it's a whole load of effort spent on unpleasant stuff that employers would prefer to avoid.

You could ask your manager for help as you would like to successfully pass your probation. Some questions you could usefully ask your manager are as follows.

'what does the right person look like'
'sometimes do you feel I'm being unreasonable?'
'do you see me as a team player?'

Rather than 'it's not fair' work on the answers to the problem. As for not being happy working in an unheated greenhouse - what kind of work do you do, is it horticultural, in which case you need to be prepared for it?
As for no drinking water - did you challenge that there was no water, or did you ask if they could buy in one of the large bottles on a daily basis?
If you can come to your employer with potential solutions to issues, they will not feel you are a potential militant, they will see you addessing problems in a positive and constructive manner.