Has there been a change in the usual "don't pay" advice?

AntonM

I'm a little confused by what seems to me to be recent changes in advice.

I've received correspondence from two parking companies for two separate episodes of parking in supermarket car parks, demanding penalty payments. On the basis of advice in this forum until quite recently, I have steadfastly ignored both.

However, I heard in passing not long ago someone talking about this issue on the radio, and that person was apparently quite firmly of the opinion that private parking management companies were within their legal rights to expect payment of such penalties. I see also in this forum in the sig line of some of the posters that one should not pay but should not ignore either. One of the companies emanding payment now mentions Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

I'm confused now. What should I do?

bod1467

Define "quite recently"? The advice to Ignore has not been the norm for almost 12 months now. (England and Wales only. Ignore is still correct for Scotland and NI).

Guys_Dad

Even the most cursory glance at any thread since February would have answered your question.

However, if you have a current ticket you want advice on, please give the date of contravention, date of any Notice to Keeper through post and what if anything you have done already about it.

Pray they were not from Parking Eye.

bondy_lad

parking eye have a pretty bad record in court over past two weeks,hopefull they are not going to get real solicitors to work for them??

AntonM

Thanks for your replies.

bod1467, every time I got a letter relating to these episodes, I checked this forum as I wanted to make sure I was still doing the right thing. The advice I found here (Google led me to this MSE forum, every time) was always "don't pay". I also checked every time that the last post was current (i.e., recent), but I can't quote the individual posts/threads now as I did not make a note at the time. I did not see, then, that "don't ignore" was no longer recommended but, to be honest, I wasn't looking for it at the time, so obviously I missed it. The first time I saw that was tonight.

Guys Dad, one was from P Smart Parking, May 2013. I've had several debt recovery notices i.r.o. this one, from two different collection companies, lately offering discounts. I was 22 minutes over the free parking allocation.

The other was from TPS, August 2013. This one's a bit of a mystery as the citation states that the car was in the parking area (times changed to avoid being recognised but the arithmetic remains the same): "from 12:00 to 12:45", but the two charge notices say "12:30 to 12:45" -- and I know that the car park in question gives 2 hours free parking, so I think all that may invalidate the notice?

I have not taken any action at all i.r.o. either episode.

Coupon-mad

You read old threads, sorry. We haven't just said 'don't pay, ignore' for most of 2013 (except on Scotland/NI threads or where someone has left it too late to appeal...as you may have done).

Have you had letters following both the PCNs yet, if you are the registered keeper? What issue dates are on the first 'Notice to Keeper/Owner' letters in each case?

AntonM

Coupon-mad, yes, it seems that I must have missed the "don't ignore" advice. It was, incidentally, the information in your sig that made me aware of this, today.

I had a "Notice to Owner" letter from P Smart, dated a week after the PCN (do you want the actual dates? or will that help the recovery companies to identify me if they read these forums, as I believe they do?). That was followed by notices to take further action (three, in Aug, Sep, and Oct).

I had no letter explicitly headed "Notice to Owner" from TPS. I did get an A4 "Charge Notice Reminder" in Sep, following the ticket on the car in Aug, and a "Final Reminder" in today's post.

Coupon-mad

AntonM wrote: »

Coupon-mad, yes, it seems that I must have missed the "don't ignore" advice. It was, incidentally, the information in your sig that made me aware of this, today.

I had a "Notice to Owner" letter from P Smart, dated a week after the PCN (do you want the actual dates? or will that help the recovery companies to identify me if they read these forums, as I believe they do?). That was followed by notices to take further action (three, in Aug, Sep, and Oct).

I had no letter explicitly headed "Notice to Owner" from TPS. I did get an A4 "Charge Notice Reminder" in Sep, following the ticket on the car in Aug, and a "Final Reminder" in today's post.

Not 'P Smart'...you mean Smart Parking Ltd (aka Town & City)? And I assume you are in England/Wales where POFA 2012 applies.

Sounds like both the first letters (Smart and TPS) were non-compliant so your best bet is to email a strong complaint and copies of the letters to the BPA, ensuring you DO NOT IMPLY WHO WAS DRIVING so no mention of the windscreen tickets nor of what happened on those days in the car parks:

[EMAIL="steve.c@britishparking.co.uk"]steve.c@britishparking.co.uk[/EMAIL]

You'd be saying:

'I am the registered keeper of vehicle registration xxx xxxx and am being harassed by two different AOS members. I have done some research about POFA 2012 and in neither case have Smart nor TPS actually ever sent me a compliant Notice to Keeper within the required timeframe. As the driver has not been identified, these AOS firms have no business to harass a registered keeper where they have not established liability under POFA 2012.

I require you to investigate both cases and I attach the letters received so far in this regard, in both cases. Please tell me the outcome because you cannot allow your member firms to assert that a keeper is liable when they haven't bothered to follow the requirements for a Notice to Keeper under Schedule 4 of POFA 2012.
yours,

{NAME OF REGISTERED KEEPER} '




P.S. Do not attach the original windscreen tickets... if they existed...only the postal letters!!! You are writing as the registered keeper who DID NOT see those because that was the unidentified driver's chance to appeal, not yours. Remember that the BPA are not on your side as they represent the PPCs, so be careful with your complaint wording but be insistent. No saying who was driving even if asked.

P.P.S. What happened when you complained to the Store Manager at Asda and whichever other Supermarket?! Like you would about any harassment by their agent!

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4766249

Loads there about how to complain and all the successes since August when I started the thread. Only complain to the STORE MANAGER in person and/or CEO by email/post; see post #3 for who to complain to and a template rant.

AntonM

Coupon-mad, thank you for your very complete and helpful reply! I'll send the letter more or less exactly as you gave it, and paying careful attention to your caveats.

Re your "P.P.S." -- the Asda store manager said that their parking was being abused by people attending the nearby gym. She added that, if they could pay gym club fees, then a £70 fine was nothing to them. I told her I didn't go to the gym, but she just shrugged. She also said that if I gave her the letter, Asda "might consider" withdrawing it. I was wary that she might actually let the parking company know that she had a victim who had just effectively admitted to going over time, so I decided against trying her "might consider" option. I was also pretty annoyed with Asda -- we've been shopping regularly there for 13 years and have probably spent of the order of £30-40k over that time, but because I overstep parking by 20 minutes, they are happy to have me punished to the tune of £70. Because of that attitude, I won't shop there again.

Umkomaas

I was also pretty annoyed with Asda -- we've been shopping regularly there for 13 years and have probably spent of the order of £30-40k over that time, but because I overstep parking by 20 minutes, they are happy to have me punished to the tune of £70. Because of that attitude, I won't shop there again.

I suggest you send that paragraph in a strong complaint to Asda Head Office, not only about the PCN you've picked up but also about the appalling attitude of their local manager.

If you're a member if FaceBook, then why not post a complaint there too - a la Aldi FB where a firestorm has been raging relentlessly for the past 5 months!

See https://www.facebook.com/AldiUK?filter=2

Coupon-mad

AntonM wrote: »

Coupon-mad, thank you for your very complete and helpful reply! I'll send the letter more or less exactly as you gave it, and paying careful attention to your caveats.

Re your "P.P.S." -- the Asda store manager said that their parking was being abused by people attending the nearby gym. She added that, if they could pay gym club fees, then a £70 fine was nothing to them. I told her I didn't go to the gym, but she just shrugged. She also said that if I gave her the letter, Asda "might consider" withdrawing it. I was wary that she might actually let the parking company know that she had a victim who had just effectively admitted to going over time, so I decided against trying her "might consider" option. I was also pretty annoyed with Asda -- we've been shopping regularly there for 13 years and have probably spent of the order of £30-40k over that time, but because I overstep parking by 20 minutes, they are happy to have me punished to the tune of £70. Because of that attitude, I won't shop there again.

Totally agree with Umkomaas, you have got to complain about that reaction to the Executive Relations Team at Asda Head Office. Lay it on thick.