My Daughter needs help please

philip1988

Hi, my daughter needs some help and advice. Apologies in advance for the length of the post.
She works as a care assistant in a home for mentally challenged young men.
Two weeks ago there was an incident when she took one of the boys to his music lesson. Whilst at the lesson the boy did a poo in his pants which she had to deal with. To cut a long story short the music teacher complained to head office saying that my daughter had:
a. had refused him food and drink before he attended his class
b. refused to clean the boy up
c. shouted at him
d. left the loo door open for all to see
e. called him a "walking disease"
The first that my daughter knew that there was a problem was when she received a disciplinary letter with a copy of an unsigned/dated witness statement from the music teacher. The hearing had been arranged for the day following receipt of the letter. As it was my daughter had to postpone the meeting as it was early in the morning and she is currently suffering badly from morning sickness.

When she rang on the morning to rearrange she did point out that she had intended to attend but they hadn't given her reasonable notice to prepare for the meeting/arrange for someone to attend with her. The Head Office response was basically "tough" we can arrange a disciplinary meeting whenever they want.


When the letter for the rearranged meeting arrived the charge had been increased to gross misconduct. When my daughter spoke to her manager she said that they had increased the charge because she hadn't attended the first meeting. Surely they can't do this can they?


At the meeting my daughter asked why the charge was now gross conduct and they said they had been advised by their employment consultants. So which is the right version? Anyway she explained what had actually happened and how the allegations against her weren't true and how the statement contradicted itself. She also pointed out that there were no safety gloves available which contravened the companies infection control policy. Interestingly the same thing happened the following day when the boy went to college (different care assistant) and he had to be taken back to the home for cleaning up. As a result of these two incidents whenever the boy now goes out the carer takes gloves and a spare set of clothes.



Anyway, fast forward and she received a letter to day issuing her a final written warning stating the following reasons:
a. she broke the companies care standards by shouting at the boy, him losing his dignity etc
b. how she should have taken safety gloves/spare clothes with her, even though there is no mention of this in his care plan and no other carer had in the past. In fact the care plan has still not been updated since the incidents
My daughter feels that she has been unfairly treated and is going to appeal.

The points she wants to raise are:
a. How the disciplinary charge was "grossed up" unfairly
b. how they haven't taken into account about how she explained how she dealt/spoke to the boy and they are taking the side of a witness who isn't trained in how to care for the boys and whose evident can't be collaborated
c. the company failed to provide correct infection control facilities and how her manager should have advised her if a special arrangements should have followed


Incidentally she never received or was directed to the current disciplinary procedures when she joined the company over 2 years ago, the reason cited was that they were updating the staff handbook. The first time she had seen the procedures was when they were included in the SECOND letter. Also she has an exemplary disciplinary track record and hasn't had any warnings of any sort before.

Sorry for the length of the post, any help/advice should be gratefully appreciated

Thanks for reading

marybelle01

Honestly, she could appeal but it probably isn't worth it, because I can't see she will win. They didn't dismiss her - so there is no right of appeal to an employment tribunal or anywhere else. She's on a final warning which means that one step out of line (or what they can say is out of line) and she is dismissed. And she is on weak ground anyway - I accept that the witnesses evidence can't be corroborated, but neither can hers unless there was someone else there.

It's not a thing I'd like to say, but I think she needs to look for another job. Sooner rather than later.

fannyadams

it sounds to me like they are looking for an excuse to not pay her maternity pay when the day arrives (I presume this is what the morning sickness is about)
what do the company procedures say?
what is written down about how the disciplinary procedure works?
does she have independant witness to that fact that she didn't do these things? (I have assumed she hasn't or why would she need to appeal).

philip1988

Thank you fannyadams and marybelle01

How true your comments are fannyadams. They have got rid of girls before just before they went on maternity saying they didn't need them anymore. I do believe that once you reach the qualifying period 25 weeks? they still have to pay maternity pay, though I may be wrong

Marybelle01. I agree that it is her word against the music teachers so why side with the music teacher. As her manager says "with this company you are guilty until you can prove otherwise" Probably she won't get anywhere with an appeal but she needs to try because a final written notice won't go down well when applying for other jobs. She has been in this job for over 2 years now and never ever had any disciplinary issues before.

They have followed their disciplinary procedures so far, though the "so called crime" doesn't fit with the examples they give for a final warning.

Thank you both for your comments

marybelle01

philip1988 wrote: »

Marybelle01. I agree that it is her word against the music teachers so why side with the music teacher. As her manager says "with this company you are guilty until you can prove otherwise" Probably she won't get anywhere with an appeal but she needs to try because a final written notice won't go down well when applying for other jobs. She has been in this job for over 2 years now and never ever had any disciplinary issues before.

They have followed their disciplinary procedures so far, though the "so called crime" doesn't fit with the examples they give for a final warning.

Thank you both for your comments

Yes I get that but

(a) The employer doesn't need to prove who is telling the truth. Employment isn't a criminal court - the employer only needs reasonable belief. Being totally objective here (and you won't want to hear this) why would an independent teacher lie about this? What have they got to gain? In these circumstances I doubt even a tribunal would have decided against the employer without some proof that he or she was lying.

(b) Honestly, and I speak from experience in this, if this allegation had been made to me, the charge would have been gross misconduct from the beginning! I'm not saying she is guilty - just that such an allegation should ALWAYS have been gross misconduct. So you also won't want to hear that if I had been hearing such an allegation, and if I believed, on the balance of probabilities, that it was true, it would have taken a very, very strong mitigation for me not to have dismissed. And just on the basis of (e) alone.

I am not saying this to upset you, because I don't know whether she did it or not, and I didn't hear the case. Just that it isn't altogether straightforward, and it's actually a bit incomprehensible that someone would lie about this, or even that the employer wouldn't dismiss. Now maybe that proves some kind of conspiracy. If it does you can't prove it, and you haven't much of an argument since she wasn't dismissed.

Now none of that means the employer is right, or nice, or not trying to get rid for other reasons - but she is up against a wall that is a damned corner! So I tell you this for perspective, not as a judgement. What you/she does with that is up to you... but you do need to understand that with an independent witness making an allegation of this sort, it is compelling evidence...

philip1988

marybelle01 wrote: »

Yes I get that but

(a) The employer doesn't need to prove who is telling the truth. Employment isn't a criminal court - the employer only needs reasonable belief. Being totally objective here (and you won't want to hear this) why would an independent teacher lie about this? What have they got to gain? In these circumstances I doubt even a tribunal would have decided against the employer without some proof that he or she was lying.

(b) Honestly, and I speak from experience in this, if this allegation had been made to me, the charge would have been gross misconduct from the beginning! I'm not saying she is guilty - just that such an allegation should ALWAYS have been gross misconduct. So you also won't want to hear that if I had been hearing such an allegation, and if I believed, on the balance of probabilities, that it was true, it would have taken a very, very strong mitigation for me not to have dismissed. And just on the basis of (e) alone.

I am not saying this to upset you, because I don't know whether she did it or not, and I didn't hear the case. Just that it isn't altogether straightforward, and it's actually a bit incomprehensible that someone would lie about this, or even that the employer wouldn't dismiss. Now maybe that proves some kind of conspiracy. If it does you can't prove it, and you haven't much of an argument since she wasn't dismissed.

Now none of that means the employer is right, or nice, or not trying to get rid for other reasons - but she is up against a wall that is a damned corner! So I tell you this for perspective, not as a judgement. What you/she does with that is up to you... but you do need to understand that with an independent witness making an allegation of this sort, it is compelling evidence...

Thank you for your valued comments. I don't think it was a case of the teacher lying rather than confusing what actually happened. To give an example, the teacher said that my daughter refused to help the boy. Considering she went into the toilet and could see my daughter trying to wash the boys hands (I won't say where he kept putting them) and saying she was refusing to help beggars believe. May be when my daughter rang the care home to ask for advice is where this statement came from.


I know it sounds like a Dad who can only see good from his daughter, but she is a valued member of the team there, is well liked by all 6 boys and has had excellent appraisals in the past for the way she conducts her work.



Anyway, looks like she will have to take this one on the chin because there were no other witnesses

ValHaller

Seems like the procedure was wrong, there should have been an investigatory hearing.

philip1988

ValHaller wrote: »

Seems like the procedure was wrong, there should have been an investigatory hearing.

I agree the procedure was wrong and has since been changed.

My daughter had the opportunity to "put her case" as part of the disciplinary hearing

kiddy_guy

I'd appeal this. I'd be checking to establish whether they've followed their own DP process (looks like not), and the appeal all the points.

CFC

I think she was lucky that it wasn't alleged Gross misconduct - if it had been my hearing, it would have been.

philip1988

CFC wrote: »

I think she was lucky that it wasn't alleged Gross misconduct - if it had been my hearing, it would have been.

Thanks but on what basis. She was able to explain her version of events and how certain actions were misinterpreted by the teacher. At the end of the day it is one persons account against another