Popla

NJH1

Having been issued with a charge 3 weeks ago:mad: (Ivybridge, Devon) by PPS for not displaying a ticket (as the machine took my fee and failed to issue one), I wrote indicating that I wouldn't pay it. The grounds were I had paid the fee and displayed a note to that effect. I returned from my appointment within the time. Hence I have paid the required fee and did not exceed what I had 'purchased'. It was explained to me by local residents that this is a scam and to ignore it and it would 'go away'. My reading of this helpful forum suggests that isn't likely!
Predictably, I have today received the refusal to cancel the Notice, with it a POPLA form. I was planning to complete this, although I am reading that my reasons will carry no weight and I will lose the appeal (I didn't display a valid ticket just my note saying I had paid). I feel strongly about this scam. Why were none of the machines working. Chance?
Also, there has been no acknowledgement that I paid the required fee. In Civil law doesn't that mean I was entitled to a service? And, as long as I didn't overstay, I could park there given that I displayed a note to that effect? I am not expecting some operative on less than min wage to turn down the chance of issuing a notice, but.....
I am confused by this action. The letter uses the term "appeal", despite my writing that my letter was not an appeal. Rather it was my rejection of their unreasonable notice for payment. Is this just semantics? It also states, " If your appeal is unsuccessful, you have the opportunity to go to an Independent Appeals service known as POPLA.....If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you".
Am I right in believing that I am at that stage now? They have included a form with a PCN Number, asking me to tick a box with my grounds. I won't succeed, despite the fact they had my fee for the time I parked because I didn't display a ticket or phone to have the vehicle authorised. I did phone the number afterwards and was abruptly told that it was impossible to speak to anybody and the number was just to make payment.
My question is what is the best action to take? By not 'appealing' as per the enclosure I assume I will be sold to a debt recovery firm who will pursue the payment. I really don't want these shysters on my door step BUT I am NOT paying £60 OR £100. They state they "may" proceed to court. Should I take my chance? Thanks!

Hovite_2

As per many other threads - appeal to POPLA on the lack of contract and the charge not being a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

NJH1

Is it a futile point to say they didn't lose as I paid the fee to park for an hour? They didn't issue a valid ticket but still had my fee!

Hovite_2

NJH1 wrote: »

Is it a futile point to say they didn't lose as I paid the fee to park for an hour? They didn't issue a valid ticket but still had my fee!

The quick answer is ..... yes.

Coupon-mad

NJH1 wrote: »

Is it a futile point to say they didn't lose as I paid the fee to park for an hour? They didn't issue a valid ticket but still had my fee!

Well it's kind of connected to one of the many winning points on a decent POPLA appeal.

You have alluded to 'they made no loss' which is a winning point almost every time - and did you know we have WON 100% of the time in all POPLA appeals helped on here for the last 7 months?

Start by taking a good long look at the Notice you got. Was it a windscreen PCN or a postal one?

If a postal one, did you then just jump the gun and appeal it inferring that you were the driver (ooops...that was a mistake, should have waited till you got a NTK in the post but never mind).

Anyway, once we know if this was a postal PCN or a windscreen one only, we can tell you how to spot the flaws with it.

Also have you got or can you get, pics of the signs? At the entrance and also the wording.

NJH1

I returned to vehicle to find a PCN attached to car. I wrote saying I wasn't paying it as they had received the appropriate fee for duration of my stay. I had left a visible note stating that machines not working. The response states it was issued correctly so I can pay up or appeal to POPLA. A form was enclosed. In their letter they state that "coins are not accepted for a number of reasons"...and therefore it was my responsibility to phone and get authorisation (despite the number I called afterwards stating it was just for payment). Sounds like I appeal then? It appears ignoring is not an option as I may be pursued by debt recovery as they are unlikely to go to Court? I want to stand firm as this is way out of order. What is the wording for 'no contract' in the appeal?

Guys_Dad

Just add your mitigation to post #2 advice.

Read Poplar Decisions sticky thread last few pages for NO CONTRACT and GENUINE PRE ESTIMATE OF Loss and how to phrase them.

Coupon-mad

NJH1 wrote: »

I returned to vehicle to find a PCN attached to car. I wrote saying I wasn't paying it as they had received the appropriate fee for duration of my stay. I had left a visible note stating that machines not working. The response states it was issued correctly so I can pay up or appeal to POPLA. A form was enclosed. In their letter they state that "coins are not accepted for a number of reasons"...and therefore it was my responsibility to phone and get authorisation (despite the number I called afterwards stating it was just for payment).

Sounds like I appeal then? It appears ignoring is not an option as I may be pursued by debt recovery as they are unlikely to go to Court? I want to stand firm as this is way out of order. What is the wording for 'no contract' in the appeal?

Examples & info about how to win at POPLA here, it's by far the easiest option:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/62180281#Comment_62180281

Show us your draft on your thread like everyone else does and we'll help you to win.

Next time NEVER jump the gun with a hasty 'appeal', this is different from a Council PCN.

Do NOT respond to a private windscreen ticket (unless you are not the registered keeper and won't get the first letter yourself). ALWAYS wait for the first letter as you have actually lost some appeal grounds by outing yourself as the driver.

Please can you show us the signage wording or is that not possible? Also we'd like to see that windscreen ticket please, both sides, all wording except your car reg & PCN number (host your pics on tinypic and remove the http bit if you can't post links yet).

I am concerned about GPEOL because we need to be sure the sign says 'breach' or 'failure to comply' if GPEOL is going to work. Does their rejection letter mention 'breach' or 'failure to comply' on your part?

NJH1

Really confused...I came to the site and followed template letter to the issuing company. In it I indicated that I was not appealing, below, "I am not considering that this represents an appeal, as I do not believe that your notice represents a fair request under the circumstances I have set out".
Looks like I messed up then and waited for them to have written to me! Not sure how this affects my appeal grounds but I bow to superior knowledge as I am totally new to this.
Anyway I will compose a draft appeal and value any critical overview. I will visit site again and take pics.

NJH1

Sorry...didn't answer previous points fully.
In the rejection letter from PPS they state: "Parking at this site is only for vehicles that are parked in accordance with the site instructions, as detailed on signage on site. ........The charge is set on the basis of the projected costs of recovering unpaid fees from motorists who do not comply with the terms of use and reflects the activities needed to undertake such action".
I remain concerned at their ignoring of my point that the machine took my money and failed to issue a ticket. The letter states"Coins are not accepted in the pay and display machines for a number of reasons, damaged, fake or dirty, when parking at the site and if the machine is not accepting all of the coins you are placing into the machine you should phone the number on the signage to speak to a member of staff who can then help you and authorise your vehicle, as this was not done the charge will stand" (verbatim extract from letter and not by poor grammar).
I may be obsessed with the futility of this point but the machine DID accept my money (and that of an earlier customer who spoke to me). hence I paid them the appropriate charge to park, and hence my feelings of injustice that they had the fee and they want to extort this excessive charge! If this is a waste of time in the appeal I will be duly advised.
Thanks for any comments/advice.

Iceweasel

I think you 'messed up' on several points - contacting them too soon for a start.

As for saying that you 'were not appealing' - what does that mean? To me it means that you accept what they say, and will be paying. I don't think that's what you really meant though.

As suggested write again saying that you are appealing for the reasons stated - no loss, lack of contract, charge not being correct etc.

Likely they will not allow your appeal, but you then get a POPLA code and take it from there to success.

But don't do a POPLA appeal without advice from knowledgeable experienced regulars on the forum. A DIY job will more than likely fail.