Police Pension advice

dodgiedave

I thank those that have given me proper answers to the question I asked. I now have my answer and will look at my options.

I ask a question and the thread has been taken over with 'You should be grateful' rather than many answers.

Those that continue to quote and then reply to phrases and sentences. It would appear you are just looking for some sort of debate, some of the points and comments really are quite petty.......

Sensible questions, additional comments and points made by people in a similar position are obviously a welcome addition and you know which category you will fall into!

Others clearly have a little too much time? Maybe had a speeding ticket recently...................

If you don't know the answer don't give me one!

Below are the answers to my questions for people who wanted to know.

'the ability to access the pension at the PPS/NPPS age/service point will be conditional on continuing to contribute to the new pension scheme'

So if you leave the new scheme you become a deferred member on your entire pension and receive nothing until 60 years old.

So it's stay in until 60 and get the lot.

Come out the pension and get nothing until your 60.

Retire at 55 and get your PPS pension at the earlier age and the rest at 55 reduced.

Retire at the earlier age(52 in my case) and get your PPS straight away and the 2015 pension at 55 greatly reduced.

Hope that makes sense.

Please......No more replies. I have my answer!

jimi_man

dodgiedave wrote: »

Thanks for the response that is nice and clear. Just to clarify one point. If I stay in the new scheme and retire at 52 I get my old PPS 1987 at 52. The rest I would receive at age 60 not 67.

I started quite a debate! Was not meant to. Clearly a lot of bitterness towards the Police...........

Bottom line is we joined something with very concrete pay and pensions. This has now been pulled from under us half way through our service. In no way is this acceptable and I will be taking personal legal advice on the basis of a mis-sold pension. As others have said, I could of made a lot more money in another job. The pay and conditions were there for a reason. The service is already changing dramatically in the 13 years service I have and ultimately the public will end up suffering.

If you retire at 52 then you would get your 1987 pension at 52, however you would then become a 'deferred pensioner' in respect of the 2015 scheme so it would be deferred until State Pension Age, which is 67 or 68. You are incorrect when you state that it is 60 I'm afraid.

The way it is destined to work is that if you serve until 60, then you'll get your 2015 pension then. However there is a facility for you to take it earlier, but it would be actuarially reduced to the tune of about 4-5% a year. If you leave after the age of 55 then it's actuarially reduced from the age of 60; if you leave before the age of 55 then it's actuarially reduced from State Pension Age - 67 or 68. A lot then!

I suggest you check the details as published on the Gov website, or for a slightly clearer precis then the Federation website of your particular force. Thames valley Police has a pretty good guide. Obviously it has not been introduced yet, so these are only the proposals.

Furthermore, if you don't join the new 2015 scheme, then you will miss out on the 'weighted double accrual', i.e. the expectation and allowance, that your pension would have gone up at twice the rate in the last 10 years if you had stayed in the 1987 pension scheme.

Much more damaging is the fact that if you don't join the new scheme then your service after 2015 won’t count towards your 1987 pension in respect of when you can receive it. So in your case, as per your original post, at the age of 52 if you didn’t join the new scheme, then you would just get 15/60ths pension. With only 15 years service you would be only eligible for a deferred pension under the 1987 scheme, which is payable at 60.

So it’s pretty much in your interests to join the 2015 scheme!

The idea of being missold a pension has been raised before and legal advice that has been obtained is that you would get nowhere with it. Quite apart from anything else, I fail to see how a pension has been missold. After all you are still getting the benefits promised from the 1987 scheme, and assuming you join the new scheme then they will continue to be honoured. What has changed is that the schemes are being closed and a new one set up in its place. Whilst the new scheme doesn’t offer the benefits of the old one, it’s a fairly common scenario that schemes close and new ones take their place with different rates, scales etc. The whole of the public sector has to contend with this, the Police have got off lighter than most.

jimi_man

dodgiedave wrote: »

I thank those that have given me proper answers to the question I asked. I now have my answer and will look at my options.

I ask a question and the thread has been taken over with 'You should be grateful' rather than many answers.

Those that continue to quote and then reply to phrases and sentences. It would appear you are just looking for some sort of debate, some of the points and comments really are quite petty.......

Sensible questions, additional comments and points made by people in a similar position are obviously a welcome addition and you know which category you will fall into!

Others clearly have a little too much time? Maybe had a speeding ticket recently...................

If you don't know the answer don't give me one!

Below are the answers to my questions for people who wanted to know.

'the ability to access the pension at the PPS/NPPS age/service point will be conditional on continuing to contribute to the new pension scheme'

So if you leave the new scheme you become a deferred member on your entire pension and receive nothing until 60 years old.

So it's stay in until 60 and get the lot.

Come out the pension and get nothing until your 60.

Retire at 55 and get your PPS pension at the earlier age and the rest at 55 reduced.

Retire at the earlier age(52 in my case) and get your PPS straight away and the 2015 pension at 55 greatly reduced.

Hope that makes sense.

Please......No more replies. I have my answer!

Yep, I think you've got it at last! Just be aware that in the case of the bold text, you would get your PPS pension at 55 as well as the 2015 one. You can't receive a pension at the 'earlier age' (I presume you mean 52?) as you will still be serving and you obviously can't receive a pension whilst you are serving.

Other than that I think we're done!!.

jem16

jimi_man wrote: »

If you retire at 52 then you would get your 1987 pension at 52, however you would then become a 'deferred pensioner' in respect of the 2015 scheme so it would be deferred until State Pension Age, which is 67 or 68. You are incorrect when you state that it is 60 I'm afraid.

That's not what the calculator on the gov.uk says and not what it says in the illustrated examples.

Calculator notes;

If you are a PPS member, you may be entitled to retire before age 55. Results for retirement at ages before 55 show the amount of any new scheme pension you have built up at your State Pension Age as this is the earliest age you would be entitled to take these benefits without reduction if you leave active service before age 60. Alternatively, you could choose to receive your new scheme benefits from age 55, with actuarial reduction to allow for the start of payments occurring earlier than your State Pension Age.

Illustrated examples say;

7. Member who joined the PPS 1987 in 2000, aged 20.
The member has 15 years’ service in the 1987 scheme and is aged 35 in 2015. The member does not qualify for full, or tapered protection. The member has a number of options available for retirement under the new scheme:
a. retire at age 60 with a total pension of £26,900 pa (PPS pension of £12,200 pa and 2015 pension of £14,700 pa)
b. retire at age 55 with a total pension of £21,600 pa (PPS pension of £12,200 pa and 2015 pension of £9,400 pa)
c. retire at age 50 with a PPS pension of £12,200 pa and a deferred 2015 pension (payable from age 55 of £4,400 pa or from age 68 (SPA) of £6,200 pa).

jimi_man

You have posted a lot of info there! Which bit have I got wrong?

(It's quite possible that I have made an error.)

jem16

jimi_man wrote: »

You have posted a lot of info there! Which bit have I got wrong?

(It's quite possible that I have made an error.)

The calculator and the illustration seems to suggest that you can retire at age 52 with full benefits of the PPS and actuarially reduced benefits of the 2015 pension at age 55.

jimi_man

I think I did say something similar to that

'...The way it is destined to work is that if you serve until 60, then you'll get your 2015 pension then. However there is a facility for you to take it earlier, but it would be actuarially reduced to the tune of about 4-5% a year. If you leave after the age of 55 then it's actuarially reduced from the age of 60; if you leave before the age of 55 then it's actuarially reduced from State Pension Age - 67 or 68'.

Essentially we seem to be saying the same thing, that he can retire at 52 with his PPS pension and then (technically ) 67 or 68 for his 2015 pension, though he can have it earlier if he takes a drop. Obviously you can't have it before 55, apart from the PPS none of the other Police schemes pay out under 55, presumably in line with the law I guess.

atush

The biggest point is, there is no bitterness towards police (apart from individual police members who have been caught fabricating evidence oin recent/past cases).

Being normal, intelligent people we don't judge the majority by the acts of a few. We value the police as a whole, but are mystified by the police posters here who seem to lack the ability to see the true state of things.

But all the recent ( I am thinking 2/3 years or so) police pension threads have been littered by police pension members who have no idea of economics, and pay scant attention to facts over rhetoric.
Who talk of miss-selling, protections etc. Where none exist.


But we are not bitter, as can be seen when we say to keep in the Police pension rather than opting out. Which costs the taxpayers/MSE members more in the end when we may have to pay more to support the new pensions coming in that you don't like.

taktikback

I agree with that sentiment - what annoys is the unwillingness to see reason and the persecution complex - The comment "Maybe had a speeding ticket lately" is just asking for the response "OK don't join the new scheme -cut of your nose to spite your face -and waste your money on a legal challenge that everyone can see will go nowhere". If the attitude was a little more conciliatory, then it would help - people on here are offering a lot of sound advice - and contrary to popular belief -most people don't hate the police and are quite happy to see them get a good pension deal. It reminds me of the printers at Wapping in the bad old days - they lost touch with the world moving on. Everyone has to adapt - there's no point in being a martyr - get the best deal you can - know when you're well off - and do the smartest thing for your personal circumstances within the rules.

Bettingmad

jimi_man wrote: »

If you retire at 52 then you would get your 1987 pension at 52, however you would then become a 'deferred pensioner' in respect of the 2015 scheme so it would be deferred until State Pension Age, which is 67 or 68. You are incorrect when you state that it is 60 I'm afraid.

The way it is destined to work is that if you serve until 60, then you'll get your 2015 pension then. However there is a facility for you to take it earlier, but it would be actuarially reduced to the tune of about 4-5% a year. If you leave after the age of 55 then it's actuarially reduced from the age of 60; if you leave before the age of 55 then it's actuarially reduced from State Pension Age - 67 or 68. A lot then!

I suggest you check the details as published on the Gov website, or for a slightly clearer precis then the Federation website of your particular force. Thames valley Police has a pretty good guide. Obviously it has not been introduced yet, so these are only the proposals.

Furthermore, if you don't join the new 2015 scheme, then you will miss out on the 'weighted double accrual', i.e. the expectation and allowance, that your pension would have gone up at twice the rate in the last 10 years if you had stayed in the 1987 pension scheme.

Much more damaging is the fact that if you don't join the new scheme then your service after 2015 won’t count towards your 1987 pension in respect of when you can receive it. So in your case, as per your original post, at the age of 52 if you didn’t join the new scheme, then you would just get 15/60ths pension. With only 15 years service you would be only eligible for a deferred pension under the 1987 scheme, which is payable at 60.

So it’s pretty much in your interests to join the 2015 scheme!

The idea of being missold a pension has been raised before and legal advice that has been obtained is that you would get nowhere with it. Quite apart from anything else, I fail to see how a pension has been missold. After all you are still getting the benefits promised from the 1987 scheme, and assuming you join the new scheme then they will continue to be honoured. What has changed is that the schemes are being closed and a new one set up in its place. Whilst the new scheme doesn’t offer the benefits of the old one, it’s a fairly common scenario that schemes close and new ones take their place with different rates, scales etc. The whole of the public sector has to contend with this, the Police have got off lighter than most.

The OP will not miss out on double accrual as it simply won't be there when the 1987 scheme closes. What the government have done is to recognize the expectancy of double accrual and revalue the accrual to 1/45's to compensate.