Father Bankrupted by Lowell

Stormcrow23

fermi wrote: »

Magistrate's fines are excluded and not written off in bankruptcy, so if one of those then this falls outside the BR and has to be paid off whether the BR is annulled or not.

Joint debts remain the responsibility of the non bankrupt signatory, so yes, your mother is liable and can pay that off no matter what happens with the father's BR.

If the BR order should never have been made, then could I think be set aside or annulled on those grounds, but if paid off in full it is just annulled I think. Application to the court required for both/either I think?

Yes, I did some homework here - my mother can settle the overdraft debt, indeed they would come chasing her for it eventually despite my dad's bankruptcy. National debtline also indicated she was free to enter a negotiation with them despite the bankruptcy.

Good to get confirmation I can move on these court fines too.

Something I found in my massive online research into bankruptcy was a statement that the OR should not seek to block the bankrupt from settling their debts (only the restrictions of no longer owning your money, assets etc. prevent this unless basically a third party steps in as in this case). I will look more closely at this, but I believe all the moves I'm making so far are legal.

I have my father applying for a stay of proceedings to start the process of annulment today. Hopefully the info from Lowells / any records of my fathers will be available soon and I will then look at what I have and seek advice on whether I have sufficient evidence for a case. If not, we are looking at the pay and annul solution. Does anyone know if I can haggle on the figures, contest charges etc. at this point or are my hands tied?

Stormcrow23

We have had contact with Lowell / BW Legal. The original debt of £1365.14 has been padded up to £4854 so far on their side (that is a rise of £3268.86 since December 2012 which listed it as £1585.14). We have asked them for full details on what this is composed of. Again, does anyone know if we would have to pay what they ask in full or if we can negotiate with them if it is still a possibility that we can aim for an annulment under 'paying in full'. I will look closely at the facts and figures but fear we won't have sufficient evidence to have the bankruptcy overturned.

The bankruptcy itself is currently in the hands of a trustee rather than the OR, presumably as there are significant assets to be disposed of. He appears to be stalling and despite having been informed we are moving to annul will not disclose his fees or communicate further with my father until all assets have been valued. He also claims that nothing can at present be done and no figures can be given 'in case further creditors emerge'. Bear in mind I'm getting this third hand, but it doesn't sound good. I have a nasty feeling we are going to lose here, or at the very least I'm going to get saddled with debt in the tens of thousands.

The court ignored my parents' plea to get a stay of proceedings, told them that legislation was out of date and simply handed them form 7.1A, and that grudgingly as they 'should have got it off the internet' (my parents don't have a computer). They also searched them and caused them to feel very humiliated. I think searching is normal court procedure, as I remember undergoing it myself when doing jury duty, but then, the attitude these things are done with can make all the difference... I'm sending them back to national debtline, but at present there seems no way of preventing the trustees fees from spiraling out of control.

Feeling very defeated and depressed right now. I think it is going to be as bad as I feared, and all over £1300. - thankyou Lowell... Have cancelled everything this end - our veg box, the holiday, but it is a drop in the ocean compared with what the trustee is likely to charge.

fermi

fermi wrote: »

Regards legalish help, as well as formal advice there are a few other forums who specialise in defending claims, helping overturn BRs by people like Lowells etc.

One --> http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?64-Debt-Collection-Agencies-Bailiffs-and-Enforcement

Two --> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?170-Legal-Issues

Quite a few people on those who have taken on and beaten Lowells and the like.

Have you posted on any of these?

Stormcrow23

Not yet - was waiting to see if my parents could get any more info on the original debt first. I will do that today once I've pulled myself together. I might even be able get more info from Lowells on what charges they have been applying as I'm now authorised to communicate with them.

JCS1

Flyright wrote: »

All your father's debts are included in the bankruptcy. As such you cannot make attempts to pay them off unless it is following annulment on the basis of payment in full.

You have to pay in full and take proof to court before the annulment can be granted.

Stormcrow23

I have a breakdown of the fees and charges Lowell are applying now:

BW Legal Costs Inc. VAT £2400.00
Court Issue Fee £220.00
HM Land Registry Fee £2.00
Service of the Bankruptcy Petition £60.00
Process Server Fee-Substituted Service £60.00
Court Fee Application for Substituted Service £35.00
Advocate Fees £72.00
Official Receiver's Deposit £700.00
Petition Debt Amount £1365.14

I have asked them for a further breakdown of the £2400 'legal costs inc VAT'

fermi

Hope you don't mind the link: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/showthread.php?42119-Father-Bankrupted-by-Lowell

debt_doctor

Hi,
If you can afford it, you should get some urgent advice from a specialist IP / Insolvency solicitor.
You might want to try here in the first instance........

http://www.contactlaw.co.uk/how-insolvency-practitioners-can-help.html

I did hear of one poster who got some good assistance, but I can't recommend as I have no knowledge of them.

I can't see you getting an annulment unless you clear in full all debts that your father had at the date of the bankruptcy order (not the mortgage) and all of the associated costs.

I see no grounds for 'the order ought not to have been made' - unless the Lowells debt was already statute barred prior to the petition?

Costs do mount up very quickly, arguing with Lowells about their legal costs might simply allow any IP costs to start to mount - are there any IP costs at this time?

DD

Stormcrow23

We are writing to the original Official Receiver for a breakdown of the costs incurred etc. when it got to that stage. The IP appointed as trustee was refusing to disclose their fees until we instructed them we were in touch with the official receiver and moving towards an annulment. They have now disclosed their fees to be upwards of £6000 for 'phone calls, letters and time'.

Celestine from Legal Beagles has taken this on and is seeing what can be done to help. Thanks everyone for your support. I will keep digging for information on some of these questions, and keep you posted on what transpires.

debt_doctor

Stormcrow23 wrote: »

The IP appointed as trustee was refusing to disclose their fees until we instructed them we were in touch with the official receiver and moving towards an annulment. They have now disclosed their fees to be upwards of £6000 for 'phone calls, letters and time'.

- This is what I meant..... 6 Grand for what? IPs in bankruptcy administration have to be the biggest set of legalised crooks I have ever met. I have seen them charge 40, 50, £60, 000 for little more than property conveyance.
It is these fees you must keep a close eye on as they will push your chance of annulment away from you almost day by day.

Good luck and please keep us posted - whatever you do, do it quickly.

DD