Discussion ... ASHP(Air/Air) with Solar pv ....

Coastalwatch

ForestBluebells said:

Did people get planning permission for installing the air/air systems?

what model of unit did people go for and the COP for them? Split or multi split? 

Hi FB,

As per Zeupaters post we fitted two single split systems some five years ago since when our bungalow has been kept warm in winter and cool in summer. In regard to COP and being 2kW (Mitsubishi SRKS20SZX-W) units they draw between 400 & 500 Watts apiece and while I cannot measure their output they do keep us sufficiently warm or cool as required. We are delighted, with the added bonus that in summer they run solely on PV at zero cost.

Our adjacent neighbours moved in about a year ago. Two months ago I quizzed them about any potential noise intrusion from the heat pumps, they weren't even aware we had them. They are fitted on the gable end above the attached garage so not obvious unless searching. They are quiet and athough we live in quiet road with little traffic they are seldom audible. As for planning permission then I searched our local planning authority website upon the matter where upon I was directed to a Planning Portal which listed but two sentences on Air Source Heat pumps as shown below.

Since 1 December 2011 the installation of an air source heat pump on domestic premises has been considered to be permitted development, not needing an application for planning permission, provided specified limits and conditions are met.

If you live in a listed building or a conservation area you should also contact your council to check on local policy.

shinytop

Coastalwatch said:

ForestBluebells said:

Did people get planning permission for installing the air/air systems?

what model of unit did people go for and the COP for them? Split or multi split? 

Hi FB,

As per Zeupaters post we fitted two single split systems some five years ago since when our bungalow has been kept warm in winter and cool in summer. In regard to COP and being 2kW (Mitsubishi SRKS20SZX-W) units they draw between 400 & 500 Watts apiece and while I cannot measure their output they do keep us sufficiently warm or cool as required. We are delighted, with the added bonus that in summer they run solely on PV at zero cost.

Our adjacent neighbours moved in about a year ago. Two months ago I quizzed them about any potential noise intrusion from the heat pumps, they weren't even aware we had them. They are fitted on the gable end above the attached garage so not obvious unless searching. They are quiet and athough we live in quiet road with little traffic they are seldom audible. As for planning permission then I searched our local planning authority website upon the matter where upon I was directed to a Planning Portal which listed but two sentences on Air Source Heat pumps as shown below.

Since 1 December 2011 the installation of an air source heat pump on domestic premises has been considered to be permitted development, not needing an application for planning permission, provided specified limits and conditions are met.

If you live in a listed building or a conservation area you should also contact your council to check on local policy.

Sorry to sound like a stuck record two of the "specified limits and conditions" are (1) there can only be one of them and (2) the ASHP can't be used for cooling. There are others. I think this is where you have paraphrased from, unless there is a later version.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump

ispookie666

Unless anyone complains, it's not going to be a problem. I do not know if the 4 year limit would apply. 

Coastalwatch

shinytop said:

Coastalwatch said:

ForestBluebells said:

Did people get planning permission for installing the air/air systems?

what model of unit did people go for and the COP for them? Split or multi split? 

Hi FB,

As per Zeupaters post we fitted two single split systems some five years ago since when our bungalow has been kept warm in winter and cool in summer. In regard to COP and being 2kW (Mitsubishi SRKS20SZX-W) units they draw between 400 & 500 Watts apiece and while I cannot measure their output they do keep us sufficiently warm or cool as required. We are delighted, with the added bonus that in summer they run solely on PV at zero cost.

Our adjacent neighbours moved in about a year ago. Two months ago I quizzed them about any potential noise intrusion from the heat pumps, they weren't even aware we had them. They are fitted on the gable end above the attached garage so not obvious unless searching. They are quiet and athough we live in quiet road with little traffic they are seldom audible. As for planning permission then I searched our local planning authority website upon the matter where upon I was directed to a Planning Portal which listed but two sentences on Air Source Heat pumps as shown below.

Since 1 December 2011 the installation of an air source heat pump on domestic premises has been considered to be permitted development, not needing an application for planning permission, provided specified limits and conditions are met.

If you live in a listed building or a conservation area you should also contact your council to check on local policy.

Sorry to sound like a stuck record two of the "specified limits and conditions" are (1) there can only be one of them and (2) the ASHP can't be used for cooling. There are others. I think this is where you have paraphrased from, unless there is a later version.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump

Thanks for that, unfortunately I didn't find anything so specific. Thinking further and given there's a climate crisis then the alternative of burning either gas, which we no longer use, or a WBS then my defence, should I be held accountable, will be that I've chosen the lesser of three evils!

shinytop

An A2A  ASHP system was my second choice after A2W so I looked into it a lot. In the end RHI was the deciding factor but these planning rules could easily have pushed me to a new oil system.   

ispookie666

@Coastalwatch @shinytop

All this seems to be a big disconnect between the Net zero target between one department of the government and the Planning department.  I'm hoping the clause about cooling would be removed, making it a lot easier and opening up the space heating and cooling market using ASHP.  

The easier way to circumvent this would be to use a Multi-split, although the cost is higher the end effect would be the same.  

VRF Heat Recovery Pump would be the future as you can have simultaneous heating and cooling in the various zones.  

zeupater

ispookie666 said:

@Coastalwatch @shinytop

All this seems to be a big disconnect between the Net zero target between one department of the government and the Planning department.  I'm hoping the clause about cooling would be removed, making it a lot easier and opening up the space heating and cooling market using ASHP.  

[...]

Hi

I think the real issue is connected to the launch of the RHI scheme & inclusion of MCS in what is a planning consideration which should only be concerned with amenity, therefore apart from visual & noise impact it's not really a planning issue.

Regarding the cooling element ... it's pretty obvious that this is purely to dissuade the installation of air-conditioning for use in Summer months in order to reduce energy requirements on environmental grounds. This really should be open to environmental impact analysis of A2A vs other heat pump technologies.

Generally A2A, when compared to other heat pump technologies, is effectively ...

• Cheaper (Wider access, less public purse support)
• More efficient (Winter heating COP creating lower grid load)
• Potentially open to DIY installation
• Faster install (more installations possible to address climate issues)
• Ability to supplement current heating systems
• Open to staged expandable installation approach
• Lower additional materials environmental impact (steel radiators, copper/plastic tubes, fittings, pumps, garden pipe loops etc)
  
• Higher COP allows high degree of heat provision operability fully within generation properties of typical UK solar PV installation for the majority of Spring/Autumn and reduces grid load through microgeneration supplement for a considerable part of the Winter season.

In addition, what really needs to be recognised is that in operating a heat pump at closer to a COP of ~5.5-6.0 than ~3.0-3.5 the reduced environmental (energy based emissions) impact of Winter heating would, in most domestic cases, dwarf any potential impact of cooling on the odd hot UK Summer's day, and that's without considering domestic PV as a microgeneration source which has a close generation synergy with weather related cooling requirements (sun/heat).

In conclusion, there's a very strong argument to be made for all forms of heat pumps to be excluded from the planning cycle as long as the external units noise conforms to an output/distance requirement, the rest is surely an installer competence (f-gas etc)  / building regulations issue in exactly the same way as fitting a new gas fire/cooker or adding a new wall socket. At the very edge of applying a 'reasonable man' approach, if there was to be any form of requirement placed on cooling heat pump technology installations it would logically be confined to a prerequisite of first having microgeneration in place, in which case all opposing arguments would be an irrelevant collection of moot points made for reasons other than efficiency and environmental, with a high probability that ulterior motives would be driving the position.

HTH - Z

Martyn1981

Hi Z, and totally agree. To add salt into the wounds, in Wales you need PP for a heatpump if it's within 3m of a boundary (in England it's 1m), so our property being 7m wide (even with a side drive) will require PP. This will impact most properties (terraced and semi-detached) in Wales.

I'm not against PP in general, and the Cardiff planning bods are extremely helpful, but the fact we need heatpumps as a solution for most properties, seems to fly in the face of PP.

I'm not arguing here, just a ponder I have which others may agree with, or think is stupid, but I'd suggest that the noise from a heatpump is similar to that from a boiler flue, when operating? Regardless, I wouldn't say either is particularly intrusive?

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

Hi Z, and totally agree. To add salt into the wounds, in Wales you need PP for a heatpump if it's within 3m of a boundary (in England it's 1m), so our property being 7m wide (even with a side drive) will require PP. This will impact most properties (terraced and semi-detached) in Wales.

I'm not against PP in general, and the Cardiff planning bods are extremely helpful, but the fact we need heatpumps as a solution for most properties, seems to fly in the face of PP.

I'm not arguing here, just a ponder I have which others may agree with, or think is stupid, but I'd suggest that the noise from a heatpump is similar to that from a boiler flue, when operating? Regardless, I wouldn't say either is particularly intrusive?

We definitely need some rules but the current ones were put in place in 2011 and things have changed a bit since then.  

My neighbour's oil boiler flue is a lot louder than my ASHP.    

zeupater

Martyn1981 said:

[ ... ]
I'm not arguing here, just a ponder I have which others may agree with, or think is stupid, but I'd suggest that the noise from a heatpump is similar to that from a boiler flue, when operating? Regardless, I wouldn't say either is particularly intrusive?

Hi

Just checked the nominal operation rating of our boiler (43dBA) vs that of the heat pump's outdoor unit in heating mode (47dBA), so both below but similar to a quiet office environment.

As sound pressure reduces over distance, taking the midway point as being 45dBA and churning through a distance attenuation calculation we find that increasing the distance to source approximates to the following ...

• 1m - 39dBA
  
• 3m - 29dBA (leaves rustling at ~2m from 2m high/wide bush)
  
• 5m - 25dBA
  
• 10m - 19dBA (ticking watch at ~25mm from ear)
  

... with consideration being for measurement of nighttime overnight sound levels at the distance between the sound source & the nearest opening bedroom window in a neighbouring property averaging ~30dBA, peaking no higher than 45dBA.

Pretty much says it all really, unless (based on our installed products) the boiler flue or the outdoor heat-pump unit is mounted above ground level and effectively <3m opposite a near neighbour's opening bedroom window then the sound level of either shouldn't really be considered a planning issue worth consideration other than urban areas where very high density housing exists ... in our case the nearest opening bedroom window visible from either the boiler or heat-pump is approx 150m (G00gle Earth is your friend!) against a sound pressure attenuation calculation falling to 0dBA (sound not only imperceptible but effectively immeasurable) at ~89m ...

HTH - Z