Northern Rail Fine -Help/Advice Needed Please asap.

Northern_Rail_Hater

Hi,

Can anyone help? I was issued with a failure to purchase slip because I didn't have a ticket when I went through the barrier. The reason for this is because the man in the ticket office said I could get a ticket on the train (I was rushing to get the train) so I then asked the inspector beforei got on the train could I pay with my card and he said yes.

I got on and tried to buy my weekly ticket using the inspectors ticket machine but it wouldn't accept my card and the inspector said it did that sometimes so instructed me to pay once I got to the station.so I tried to pay for a weekly ticket and they said I couldn't, I would have to get a single. That would have been £5.30 wasted as I didn't want a single so he gave me a failure to purchase slip. I told him I'm not refusing to pay, I just wanted a weekly ticket! I said I wouldn't sign it because it was incorrect and he said he would have to get the police involved. So I had to sign it. I told him I was very unhappy and asked how to appeal and was handed a complaints sheet so I assumed this was the appeal.

Anyway I received no response from northern rail except 1) they would 'aim' to respond within 20 working days and 2) they demanded £85.30 as I hadn't paid the £5.30 (I had been waiting for them to respond).

This has turned into a nightmare. All I wanted was a weekly ticket and because they misinforned me twice, had equipment not fit for purpose and didn't tell me the correct way to appeal, I'm now in a right mess.

I know £5.30 seems trivial, but I just didn't see why I should pay that when it was them not providing a proper service and not providing me with the ticket I was perfectly happy to pay for.

I am so so angry about this. This is what you get for trying to stand up for yourself it seems.

thelawnet

Travel without a ticket is an offence under the Railway Byelaws, unless you have permission, which you got twice, so no problems there, or if there were no facilities to buy at the origin station (sounds like there were).

The problems seem to have kicked off at the other end, when they were prepared to sell you a day single, but not the weekly season you wanted to buy.

Unfortunately when they start threatening you, it's best to pay up rather than refuse, because as you've now found they are threatening you with criminal prosecution and so on.

I wonder if you asked to buy a return (which wouldn't have entirely been a waste), and if they were willing to sell you one?

Also I wonder whether you asked if it was possible to buy a weekly season ticket on the train - I wouldn't necessarily assume that it was.

It sounds to me like you didn't get to the station in time to buy your ticket, you didn't buy your ticket in advance (maybe the previous week, or buy monthly tickets, which work out much cheaper), and so you aren't entirely blameless in this.

The police couldn't force you to sign anything, that is nonsense, and it wasn't a police matter, provided that you gave your name and address in respect of the unpaid fare.

If you signed something saying that you had refused to pay the fare, that is unfortunate, and it may make it difficult to defend this to be honest. Ultimately you can send them further correspondence, letters, and whatever, and until they actually issue a courts summons (which is the ultimate sanction), it's not a big deal, and at that point you should be able to settle to get the case dropped before going to court.

There's not much to say really, other than to write explaining yourself, and hope that eventually someone sees sense.

I would also enclose a cheque for £5.30 in settlement, since even though it was wasted, you still do need to buy a ticket, and you are not in a strong position at this point, and just on a risk/reward analysis, £5.30 down is a very good result at this point.

chickadee_cymru

Legislation around railway fares payment stems from Victorian times and is very strict, the law is entirely on the rail companies side and as public subsidies are steadily getting cut, rail companies are becoming even keener on enforcing them.
Unfortunately the first person you encountered whilst thinking they were helping you as you were rushing also unwittingly put you into a bad situation. The rules of travel clearly state that a passenger MUST purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity which would have been at the booking office. Sadly by the time you were stopped from their point of view you had already bypassed a ticket office, on train staff and then didn't want to buy the single offered to you. They have taken this as a refusal and fined you for it.
The best thing to do if anyone else ends up in this situation is to pay whatever it is they offer you at the time (unless of course it is a ridiculous inflated fine) and obtain a receipt them write and contest it. I would suggest that in your situation now I would be tempted to pay the demand, and then contest it from there for a refund. Unfortunately if you fail to pay this demand now they may take you to court, and the maximum possible fine is £1000 if that happens, not to mention any loss of wages you may have from taking day off to attend.
A similar situation occurred to a friend of mine and she got issued with a court letter too, she is the most honest person you will ever meet, and in the end to avoid lost wages and a possible criminal record (apparently it gets recorded as travel fraud) she settled out of court and paid about £80. She felt that was better than going to court but you may prefer to fight it in court yourself?
The railway also have their own police force (The British Transport Police) and whilst it is true that they can't physically force you to sign something, they can detain you for questioning and possibly for obstruction if you give false details as the offence is covered under by-laws and arrestable like other crimes (though this would be a very extreme measure especially for just £5).

Good luck if you decide to fight it. And here's what Northern's website says on the matter http://www.northernrail.org/travel/fines-and-penalties

Stigy

chickadee_cymru wrote: »

The railway also have their own police force (The British Transport Police) and whilst it is true that they can't physically force you to sign something, they can detain you for questioning and possibly for obstruction if you give false details as the offence is covered under by-laws and arrestable like other crimes (though this would be a very extreme measure especially for just £5).

Good luck if you decide to fight it. And here's what Northern's website says on the matter http://www.northernrail.org/travel/fines-and-penalties

They'd need grounds, as with anything, to detain you. They could arrest for refusing details etc, but usually the threat of this prompts people to cough up. The BTP would be using the same legislation the railway staff are using which makes supplying details obligatory is a passenger doesn't have a valid ticket (Regulation of Railways Act 1889), and the same power of arrest is attested to staff too, if a passenger refuses details, railway staff just tend not to exercise this power, quite rightly in my opinion as problems could occur as the police are backed by their own employers whereas rail staff probably wouldn't be...

It was wrong in this case to threaten with police if the OP wouldn't sign anything, as this is not a legal requirement. The only requirement is to supply their name and address. Nothing else.

Connel_Viaduct

Just to clarify. (Although I understand that you probably don't want to read this):-

1) It is an offence to board a train with the intent to travel without a valid ticket if facilities exist to purchase a ticket exist at the station you boarded at. Legally queuing time is not taken into account. i.e. running late is no defence.

2) Rail staff should not waive this rule (although many do in the belief that it offers good customer service). NB Verbal permission to ignore this rule is not worth the paper it is written on.

3) When asked to pay for a ticket it is your responsibility to ensure that you have the means to pay at that time. If paying by card you should ensure that your card is not an authorise all transactions or AAT card. i.e. a card that can not be used for off line transactions similar to those processed on board trains. Your bank will confirm the status of your card. NB the most common reason for cards being declined on trains is the card itself being programmed to auto decline any off line transaction i.e. any transaction where there is no immediate link to the banking system. If your card is an AAT card then the advice is to carry sufficient cash to purchase any ticket required on board in future.

4) I can not understand the refusal to sell the requested season ticket but some train companies regard seasons as a discounted ticket and as such they are technically not permitted to be sold on board (or upon arrival) if, as in this case, the passenger has started their journey at a staffed station. This IMO is a stupid policy as the railway should be encouraging the purchase of seasons. Cash upfront &c..

5) Northern seem to be cracking down on passengers who do not purchase prior to boarding where facilities exist and whilst it may not seem fair to all I believe that the DfT (Department for Transport) is ultimately responsible for this. If more passengers are forced to purchase prior to boarding this will give on board staff the time to deal with passengers boarding at the unstaffed stations and potentially time to deal with the real fare dodgers. It is government policy to reduce the level of taxpayer subsidy to the railways and one way of doing this is to ensure that those who have facilities to purchase beforehand do so ~ increase the farebox = reduce the subsidy!

You seem to have been caught out in an unfortunate sequence of events have you tried the "rail UK forums" bods for further advice?

Good luck.

mredmred

From personal experience I can say that what you tried to do was not unreasonable.

I commute by train and I usually by monthly / weekly tickets depending on my circumstances.

My departure station is unmanned but it has a ticket machine.
On a number of occasions when I've tried to buy a ticket from the machine it has been out of order and I've then had to purchase a weekly ticket on the train.

When I try to buy a ticket on the train sometimes my card is not accepted and I'm told to buy a weekly ticket at the destination station.

I've never had a problem doing this.

I don't see you are being penalised.
You attempted to purchase a ticked but the facilities would not accept payment.

Have you tried making a complaint to customer services?
I use a different rail company but when ever I have had an issue the problem has always been resolved.

Good luck

maurice28

I believe that if you normally get a weekly or a monthly ticket but circumstances beyond your control force you to buy a single ticket instead, you can claim the money back for the single ticket from Customer Services. This works with Northern monthly tickets anyway.

Doesn't help in this case I know but might be worth thinking about for future reference.

CKhalvashi

maurice28 wrote: »

I believe that if you normally get a weekly or a monthly ticket but circumstances beyond your control force you to buy a single ticket instead, you can claim the money back for the single ticket from Customer Services. This works with Northern monthly tickets anyway.

Doesn't help in this case I know but might be worth thinking about for future reference.

I've been able to do this with Greater Anglia, when I needed a weekly ticket to somewhere.

CK

yorkie2

Northern_Rail_Hater wrote: »

I got on and tried to buy my weekly ticket using the inspectors ticket machine but it wouldn't accept my card and the inspector said it did that sometimes so instructed me to pay once I got to the station.so I tried to pay for a weekly ticket and they said I couldn't, I would have to get a single. That would have been £5.30 wasted ....

No, you get it taken off the cost of your Season ticket by going to the ticket office when you arrive, presenting the single and explaining the situation.