How bad is this?

ValHaller

an9i77 wrote: »

Question: Do you think work are over reacting or do they have a point? Clearly, I won't use this word again and have apologised, but I really don't see why it is such an issue taken in the context I describe.

It is an over reaction IMO. You are quoting a hypothetical person using the word to provide a benchmark for an example. Which is legitimate.

Again IMO, it is actually a more serious matter for a hypothetical person to indicate a dislike for people based on their race than to actually use the word 'paki'. IMO, it would be ridiculous to rebuke you for postulating that a hypothetical person expressed a dislike for people based on their race. So it is even more ridiculous to rebuke you for the word itself.

But such is political correctness.

edited to add: Of course if you did have the actual situation occur as a HR problem .... how could you conduct an investigation or a disciplinary or write the notes of the process without actually using the word??? It would have to be mentioned - albeit in quotes and the word would be used in informal discussions relating to the process. It would be quite surreal to write the word on a whiteboard (sorry, I mean the multicultural board) in a locked and darkened conference room and accuse the employee of saying "I hate <the word written on the whiteboard in the locked and darkened conference room>".

I think you can fairly defend the use of the word in your situation because you would have to use the word if the situation cropped up.

an9i77

Well the letter the Head of dept wrote to me contained the p-word several times, as she was telling me that use of the p-word was offensive. In a parallel universe where I didn't get into any trouble for it, I'd be very tempted to reply telling her that I am deeply offended by her use of the p-word in her letter to me about the offensive use of the p-word.

PS Multicultural board - love it!

ValHaller

an9i77 wrote: »

Well the letter the Head of dept wrote to me contained the p-word several times, as she was telling me that use of the p-word was offensive. In a parallel universe where I didn't get into any trouble for it, I'd be very tempted to reply telling her that I am deeply offended by her use of the p-word in her letter to me about the offensive use of the p-word.

If she used the word herself, in writing to you, either she is rather limited in intellect not to spot the obvious hypocrisy or she has been quite misinformed about what you said.

an9i77

It was she who interviewed me ValHaller! So I think the limited intellect observation applies!

gibson123

It is most definetly an over reaction, how can you properly describe a racist incident without using the racist word in this context. You were not using it in a racist manner and were not being racist, you were merely using it in a case study sense. I do training with young adults on ethics, diversity and equalities and I most certainly use this word and others. I use them in a list of words and ask the young people to pick out the offensive ones and we have a serious discussion around race, sexuality etc and how the use of language affects others, even when you don't mean it to be offensive. If anyone walked into my training room and saw some of the phrases written in the flip-charts, some are racist words, some are homophobic, some are derogatory to women or people with a disability or older people. They are all terms that the majority of the young people I work with will use every day either because they mean to be offensive and abusive or because they don't know any different. The point I am making is that unless we can describe these terms accurately when explaining what is wrong with these situations nothing will never change. Your employer is a disgrace and I think you should speak to your Equalities Officer to get a more balanced view.

an9i77

Thanks. The whole point is, I was trying to describe the character saying something really bad and racist, so that it would justify the action taken and potential HR ramifications (suspension, disciplinary action, dismissal, unfair dismissal claim etc). I could have couched it in more politically correct terms but it wouldn't have had the same impact. I just can't believe they have taken it so out of context! And then I also got told off (in the letter) for not taking the feedback (in the meeting) seriously. Well of course I'm not taking it seriously, I'm too busy trying not to laugh out loud at the utter ridiculousness of it all!

What galls me is that in the interview notes she'd written down the phrase I'd used when describing the racist - 'I hate all pakis' - as though I'd said it myself. So now there's probably something from the interview in my file saying I hate all pakis. Which, as I'm half asian myself would include my dad, my uncle, my gran etc.....

ValHaller

an9i77 wrote: »

.... What galls me is that in the interview notes she'd written down the phrase I'd used when describing the racist - 'I hate all pakis' - as though I'd said it myself. So now there's probably something from the interview in my file saying I hate all pakis. Which, as I'm half asian myself would include my dad, my uncle, my gran etc.....

I'm thinking a letter is required, as the bosses letter will almost certainly be on your file

Dear <boss>

In acknowledgement of your letter of <date> concerning the use of the word 'paki' in interview on <date>, I would wish to respond for the record, to be held on my file.

I am entirely in agreement that the word 'paki' is inappropriate for use in general conversation - particularly as a word to identify people according to ethnicity. However, I note that you yourself use the word in your letter. This is of course, entirely justifiable, because you are using it solely to discuss the use of the word itself - specifically to identify a word which should not be used in general conversation, particularly as an ethnic identifier.

I would like to record - as you will agree - that my own use of the word was in the context of an exercise where I was suggesting a thresholds for action by HR in the case of a hypothetical employee who might hypothetically have said "I don't like pakis". As such, and after considerable reflection, I do not consider my use of the word to be in any way materially different from your own in your letter. In general terms, I too was using it only to discuss the use of the word itself and more specifically my context of use was that it was a word which should not be used in general conversation, particularly as an ethnic identifier.

I trust that this matter can be closed with your acceptance that at all times I have been clear in my own mind that the word is inappropriate for general conversation and only appropriate for discussions over the use of the word itself. I trust too that this letter will be retained on file with yours if ever the matter is referred to again.

Yours

<an9i77>

gibson123

Valhaller a most articulate and measured letter, you're a good person taking time to help like this.

an9i77

Thanks Valhaller. I'm actually on notice for redundancy at the moment - the interview was a last ditch attempt to remain in employment during my maternity leave (yes, they are making me redundant whilst pregnant which is a whole other story and I do intend to make a claim against them).

So not sure poking the hornets nest any further will be worth it. Of course, if they try to use the paki incident if it goes to tribunal, to justify not redeploying me, I will defend myself and hopefully the tribunal would see how ridiculous it was, but I've already responded on email explaining that I think the context was relevant and reiterating that it was the racist's words, not mine, and apologising for use of word etc so I think I will leave it for now.

Knowing them, they will try and find some way to dismiss me for gross misconduct before my notice ends in four weeks time, to avoid paying my redundancy pay, so I don't want to give them any further excuse.

I don't think the over reaction is wholly about the original incident anyway. Its because I did not get down on my knees and beg for forgiveness during the meeting to discuss it. (When the boss said 'I got called paki at school' my response was 'so did i'!) So someone's ego is not happy. Also, as I've just appealed my redundnacy, and they know I'm going to fight, there's a major case of sour grapes /wanting to be carppy to me as I'm not going down without a fight.

That's why I'm not that bothered about the actual job - didn't want it anyway (would have resigned before mat leave ended) and there's probably higher value in a claim.

But thanks for your help - as Gibson says you are most articulate!

ValHaller

an9i77 wrote: »

Thanks Valhaller. I'm actually on notice for redundancy at the moment - the interview was a last ditch attempt to remain in employment during my maternity leave (yes, they are making me redundant whilst pregnant which is a whole other story and I do intend to make a claim against them).

So not sure poking the hornets nest any further will be worth it. Of course, if they try to use the paki incident if it goes to tribunal, to justify not redeploying me, I will defend myself and hopefully the tribunal would see how ridiculous it was, but I've already responded on email explaining that I think the context was relevant and reiterating that it was the racist's words, not mine, and apologising for use of word etc so I think I will leave it for now.

Knowing them, they will try and find some way to dismiss me for gross misconduct before my notice ends in four weeks time, to avoid paying my redundancy pay, so I don't want to give them any further excuse.

I don't think the over reaction is wholly about the original incident anyway. Its because I did not get down on my knees and beg for forgiveness during the meeting to discuss it. (When the boss said 'I got called paki at school' my response was 'so did i'!) So someone's ego is not happy. Also, as I've just appealed my redundnacy, and they know I'm going to fight, there's a major case of sour grapes /wanting to be carppy to me as I'm not going down without a fight.

That's why I'm not that bothered about the actual job - didn't want it anyway (would have resigned before mat leave ended) and there's probably higher value in a claim.

But thanks for your help - as Gibson says you are most articulate!

You know what? You have convinced me that the letter should be sent. Yes, it does poke a hornets' nest - essentially calling her a hypocrite. But given the way things are going, if you are going to be out of there, then so what.

Given the background, she knew damn well why you used the word. She is neither mis-informed nor of limited intellect. She is a devious snake. She was taking the opportunity to get some poo on your file to make things difficult for you if you went to a tribunal.

Which is exactly why I would send the letter. Basically, your employer could throw into the argument at tribunal a reference to this incident and say that you were unsuited anyway due to lack of racial and diversity awareness. This would leave you on the back foot, using the arguments in the letter at tribunal, completely diverting from the main thrust of your case.

But if you send the letter now, the employer's solicitor will probably advise that the employer does not raise the incident, because your response will have to go in the court papers which will leave the manager looking a bit vindictive and scraping around for excuses.

Sometimes the best defence is attack.