Oyster card allowing minus credit when you touch out

jedy

It would be helpful to hear from oyster card users after I got a penalty fare yesterday.

I have a zone 2-4 monthly travelcard and I went through zone 1 with the intention of topping up when I exited at my interchange. This would have put my card into minus credit. there was an inspector on the Overground train who accused me of travelling without the correct fare, took my details and issued me with an £80 penalty fare (I paid £40 there and then). I accepted the fine (relieved it wasn't a court summons) and took it as warning for future travel. I had no idea that, even though the barriers let you through with a minus credit, it is not acceptable. I now know differently.

I've known plenty of people who go through barriers and get a minus credit (which they have to pay to be allowed back on the trains/tube) and no one thinks twice about it.

I'd be interested to hear from other oyster users who've gone through a barrier with a minus credit on their card and how often they've had this happen. Most of all are you aware this is considered travelling without the correct fare by TFL and will incur a penalty fare or worse a court summons?

katejo

My guess is the following: Re.Someone with a zone 2-4 card who knows that they will be crossing zone 1 is expected to add the money in advance. The inspector thinks that you might try to deny that you have crossed zone 1.
In contrast someone with a zone 1-3 card may find that they have an unexpected journey into zone 4. TFL perhaps doesn't expect them to get out first at a zone 3 station and then go through the barrier to add more money to the card before continuing the journey. Instead the person can add more money before their next journey outside zones 1-3. I have a zones 1-3 card and have (very rarely) had a negative money value on the card but it doesn't matter when I am within zones 1-3.

LexyBoy

Did you touch in at the beginning of your journey? Where did you meet the inspector- in Zone 1 or after you'd come back into your Travelcard zones?

A Travelcard on Oyster is only valid if you have a non-negative PAYG balance, but I would have thought that incurring a "debt" (not really as you've paid a deposit on the card for this reason) during the journey would be OK. I think as katejo says that the system wasn't designed to cope with situations where you end up in your zones but having incurred a debt.

The folks over in the ticketing forum on railforums.co.uk may be able to help- there's a few Oyster experts.

jedy

katejo, apparently even if you have an unexpected journey into a zone not covered by your travelcard you need to put extra money on the card before you travel to cover this. The penalty if caught by an inspector is 'insufficient funds for your journey' - this applies even if you intend to add money at a later time. The inspector would only issue a penalty if you've crossed into the extra zone.

yorkie2

jedy wrote: »

It would be helpful to hear from oyster card users after I got a penalty fare yesterday.

I have a zone 2-4 monthly travelcard and I went through zone 1 with the intention of topping up when I exited at my interchange.

Big mistake unfortunately, you are required to load credit (or, for paper ticket users, buy a ticket) at the start of your journey.

jedy wrote: »

This would have put my card into minus credit. there was an inspector on the Overground train who accused me of travelling without the correct fare, took my details and issued me with an £80 penalty fare (I paid £40 there and then). I accepted the fine (relieved it wasn't a court summons) and took it as warning for future travel.

A penalty fare is a higher than normal fare charged to people who make an honest mistake.

You are right that they can issue a court summons as an alternative if they believe you were deliberately avoiding payment, and if found guilty, the court could impose a fine (a fine would be much larger than the cost of the fare you paid), and any fine charged by the courts would be in addition to the fare due, the Company's costs, and a criminal record.

jedy wrote: »

I had no idea that, even though the barriers let you through with a minus credit, it is not acceptable. I now know differently.

The barrier should not let you enter the system with a minus credit.

jedy wrote: »

I've known plenty of people who go through barriers and get a minus credit (which they have to pay to be allowed back on the trains/tube) and no one thinks twice about it.

An inspector may think twice about it, but they should consider all the available evidence. It is more understandable in some situations than others. But I suggest you avoid ever getting into such a situation, as it can carry a risk.

A good way to avoid potential problems is to sign up online for auto top-up. You then never need to worry about going into a negative balance, nor delay yourself adding credit. It just happens!

It's well worth taking a few minutes to set up.

yorkie2

katejo wrote: »

I have a zones 1-3 card and have (very rarely) had a negative money value on the card but it doesn't matter when I am within zones 1-3.

Are you sure about that? The barriers should not allow you to enter the system (you should get a red light, not a green light) if you have a negative balance, even if you hold a Travelcard for the Zones you are entering.

Again, I advise auto top-up and I recommend you ensure that you have sufficient balance to cover any possible trips beyond Zone 3. If you do not have sufficient balance, then be very careful not to go beyond your Zones.

For example if you had a zero balance, and touched in at Baker Street, got a Met train to Wembley Park, switched platforms and got a tube to Neasden, you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare.

However if you had sufficient balance to cover the additional cost of Zone 4, then you would be absolutely valid and legit.

In both cases, when you exited at Neasden you'd be charged nothing. But what counts is that you demonstrate willingness to pay any charges and you adhere to the rules regarding touching in & out.

shorelines

yorkie2 wrote: »

Are you sure about that? The barriers should not allow you to enter the system (you should get a red light, not a green light) if you have a negative balance, even if you hold a Travelcard for the Zones you are entering.

Yup when I have a negative balance on my 1-3 travelcard, usually from having to go into zone 4 when the line has problems, it won't let me enter the system until I put add some pre-pay on it. I usually keep about £5 pre-pay on it for those unexpected situations.

Saturnalia

I read it to mean the barriers will let you exit the station if you have a neg balance at the end of the journey, but they don't let you enter and begin a new journey if your balance is already in the red.

This thread is interesting. I usually use PAYG and am sometimes -50p or so at the end of a journey and just top my card up next time I travel. I never realised I could be fined for that.

zerog

Saturnalia wrote: »

I read it to mean the barriers will let you exit the station if you have a neg balance at the end of the journey, but they don't let you enter and begin a new journey if your balance is already in the red.

This thread is interesting. I usually use PAYG and am sometimes -50p or so at the end of a journey and just top my card up next time I travel. I never realised I could be fined for that.

You can't. When using PAYG, you won't be allowed into the station without having the minimum fare to the next station. If you travel further then you will end up with a negative balance.

giraffe69

The number of people who comment on problems here which would be solved with autotopup is staggering. You'll spend the money fairly quickly. £20 is hardly the end of the known world so why seek to run it that close?

katejo

jedy wrote: »

katejo, apparently even if you have an unexpected journey into a zone not covered by your travelcard you need to put extra money on the card before you travel to cover this. The penalty if caught by an inspector is 'insufficient funds for your journey' - this applies even if you intend to add money at a later time. The inspector would only issue a penalty if you've crossed into the extra zone.

I was just suggesting an explanation. I usually have extra money on my card anyway for such additional expenses anyway. However I had a case recently where I was wrongly charged as having entered zone 4 but I had not done so . I raised it with TFL and it turned out that the route taken was not a recognised route . The oyster system had assumed that I had gone via zone 4 but I had not. I got a refund.