CITB Training Levy / Grants

comeandgo

If your first levy return is for year 13/14, submitted April 2014 then the first grant you will get, other than for apprentices, is for training done after 1st Aug 2014 and as suggested the rates will have fallen by then.

SueC_2

Apparently not, given that we have been registered, and paid their estimate, for the last two years.

OTC

We are a small civil engineering firm who have been registered with the CITB for a long time.

Believe me when I say that in our situation, in the long run, we have lost out financially. As I will explain below we pay thousands to the CITB each year and get very little back in return.

In addition, I write this message as at 10/12/13, their recently changed CPCS plant training scheme is also a money spinning rip off that deters workers from renewing their certificates for obvious valid reasons.

Let me first explain my reasons against the Levy. We are a small company with about 15 employees but have a reasonable turnover because of the nature of works we do which are on a labour plant & materials basis. The size of your turnover is important because it is used amongst other factors to set the Levy you have to pay the CITB.

We have a very stable workforce who are experienced, fully trained and happy to have a secure job in these times. They all hold CPCS cards for operating the items of plant they use, be it a digger, dumper or whatever.

Once our employees had passed the CPCS test and hold a certificate and NVQ qualification (which automatically is added the 1st time you pass by whoever submits your application - usually the training firm) you will no longer receive grants for that employee's CPCS training.

So in our scenario, we have 15 employees who have to renew their CPCS cards or add categories to it for different items of plant. We have to pay fully for that training with no help from the CITB because they say they already have their NVQ qualification. We pay thousands to the CITB each year but they say they cannot help us in any meaningful way in return.

If we had a high turnover of staff and had new staff coming in with without CPCS/NVQ qualification then yes we could claim grants from the CITB - but high turnover of staff is not good, inexperienced staff need training - you have to pay their wages whilst they are being trained and provide cover on site whilst they are away. It is costly in a lot of ways. The new staff you set on may not be any good either - or when you get them their CPCS certificate they can say "thank you very much, I'm now going to work for someone else!"

I recently had a meeting with the CITB to see how they could help us and they admitted that they could help us very little - and yet we still have to pay a Levy forever more! If they were an energy company and I used their energy then yes I would expect to pay for it. But if they supplied me with nothing then would we be expected to pay them for supplying nothing?!

The CITB was set up to serve the construction industry - to provide more training, a safer work environment. But the CITB is part of the huge H&S industry that serves itself. It creates training requirements and certificates to justify its own existence and income. It charges us a Levy but we can't claim against, it continuously changes the CPCS training goalposts which you can guarantee will place more costs on us and more revenue for them. Meanwhile they employ all these staff who drive around doing God only knows what and maintain the huge Bircham Newton training centre in Norfolk that must cost a fortune. In my dealings with the CITB of late I can honestly say that they are not living in the real world of being on site and being in business.

So what is my answer to the situation - well unlike the total confusion the CITB creates my answer is simple - there should be an opt in or opt out decision that we can make as to whether we want to be registered with the CITB.

If you opt yes - you stay within the CITB scheme.

If you opt out - like we would - then we would have to pay for all our own training - which is what we do anyway - and be unable to claim any grants from the CITB. But in turn the CITB can not charge us a Levy each year. Simple.

Now briefly to the debacle that is the new CPCS Theory Refresher Test. We have an excavator driver who is in his 50s and who has 30 years experience and is an excellent and safe driver. He also has a blue CPCS card. He is fully trained.

We have been advised that to renew his CPCS card he must take and pass a class room type theory test based on substantial facts sheets the CITB provide that he must revise before the test. Why? Why should it be a test he must pass? Why can't it be a class room tutorial when obviously he is already a fully trained certificate holding driver?

This driver, like many in the construction industry has difficulties with reading and writing and feels pressure in the classroom situation. And now the CITB are saying that unless he passes a theory test in the allotted time in a classroom environment, his CPCS certificate cannot be renewed and therefore deny him of his livelihood because he is not allowed on site without a CPCS card. The CITB clearly should not have this power - it should be illegal! Imagine the worry this driver feels when being told that he failed the test to drive an item of plant he has driven well and safely for 30 years. Imagine the embarrassment when others hear that he couldn't understand or read the questions quick enough or needed help. What does he tell his family when he says he has lost his job because of a classroom theory test. I know first hand, that this theory test has caused real unrest in our work force and at otherplaces too.

Like I said earlier - the CITB should be helping the construction industry -not hindering it. The construction industry has always helped find work for good men who happen to have literate difficulties. Now it throws obstacles up which prevents them from working! It needs to live in the real world of being on site and being in business where you shouldn't have to take retests, refresher theory tests or train for training sakes to claim grants for operations you will never do but helps serve the reason for CITB's own now dubious existence.

And remember - it is not law that you should hold a CPCS card to operate plant. It's just a cosy arrangement the CITB have forged with the big main contractors - that if you don't have their CPCS card then you can't work for the big main contractors. Why can't other training bodies, who don't treat their members like cash cows, be recognised?

Obviously I have expressed my views to the CITB - but I am hoping to set up a forum or action group against the CITB Levy and their ever changing CPCS scheme. If you are interested in contributing your opinions/thoughts then please let me know. I am going to set up threads on other websites where I can and also add to existing forums. I am also going to write to my local MP. I am also going to refuse to the Levy until I get some meaningful answers from the CITB and I would encourage you to do the same. So please don't just agree and say nothing - write something to help exert pressure on the CITB to change its ways - otherwise it will continue to loose it's credibility within the construction industry with each passing day.

Thanks,

OTC

OTC

Posted the above earlier - I wrote it at top off my head but I was unsure on my statement that your turnover forms part of the calculation for the Levy. On checking it is of course based on your yearly Payroll & Subbie costs. Sorry for that error - I was too eager to post!

But this stirs up a lot of additional arguments against the Levy - such as it should be profit based not payroll based etc etc etc

OTC

Funky_Bold_Ribena

A - Unfortunately for you the Levy is a statutory right under an act of parliament, if it wasn't the CITB taking it - someone else would.

B - The reason the cards came in was due to the number of deaths in industry. Not because the CITB were bored or fancied doing more paperwork. The reason they are still around is because people stopped being killed so much due to the cards being in existence.

C - The schemes are only administered by CITB - the rules are actually changed by key Industry leaders. Not by the CITB because they are bored.

D - If you think the CITB haven't heard all this before then think again. You can write to your MP as much as you want; the only way that you will get the CITB levy changed is if less than 50% of the registered companies are members of the Federations that support the levy.

E - Employers like you have been doing and saying this for 40 - probably 50 years. They have the right to take you to court for non-payment of the levy. So refuse at your own risk.

chrismyers1234

hi guys just a quick post ..as a subcontracter my empioyer has taken £700 plus from me prior to tax this year WHY ? ..I signed the contract to say they could take the money but was tooled if i didnt sign then i wouldnt get paid !!!can i claim this money back ?any advice ?thanks

comeandgo

You will be working labour only for the contractor so you are in effect paying the contractors citb levy. If you are citb registered yourself then the work you are doing labour only helps reduce your citb levy. I'm assuming it is a deduction called citb levy and not retention you are talking about?
You don't get the money back.

SueC_2

chrismyers1234 wrote: »

hi guys just a quick post ..as a subcontracter my empioyer has taken £700 plus from me prior to tax this year WHY ? ..I signed the contract to say they could take the money but was tooled if i didnt sign then i wouldnt get paid !!!can i claim this money back ?any advice ?thanks

What reason does your contract give for this deduction?