The cost of buying cheap...

Generali

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Which is OK if you have the choice.

But I fear you are being slightly ignorant of low income budgets here.

As for Apple, it's had so many bad reports about the way it sources it's products, I'm not sure it's a particularly great model to hold up. There was even a UK documentary on the conditions the companies Apple employ impose on their employees. And the push to do so comes directly from Apple.

Sorry to say but this is BS. Nobody in the UK starves, everyone can afford meat.

If you want to justify your little luxuries on the back of dead children then so be it. I think it's immoral.

grizzly1911

Honeythief wrote: »

Um, yes it is. Primark is all about disposable fashion.

If a person really doesn't care about fashion, they wear the same clothes for years until they fall apart into rags, and then patch them, and then wear them again. There are lots of clothing options that people can choose if they just want to be covered and warm. If they choose to follow fashions then they're part of that cycle and bear some responsibility. And again, I include myself in this. I don't want to follow my granny's example and wear my practical woollen garments for decades. I want to look nice and to roughly follow current trends, and I don't want to spend much money doing those things. And I have to bear my share of responsibility for where that ends up.

And before anybody says, "Oh but I have to buy new clothes all the time so I look nice for work," that doesn't make any sense. A few well-sewn garments that mix and match well with each other will see anybody through almost every social situation imaginable. In fact most people would be more stylish if they did that rather than buying cheap rubbish that falls apart after half a dozen washes.

If you have growing kids that love to play out then you don't have much choice but to replace at reasonable intervals.

Our two were 3 and 4 out of 12 grandchildren so plenty of stuff got "recycled".

@gen.

When they become teenagers they become a little more demanding, even if you do hold them back.Once they get their own disposable income they demand even more. just had a quick look at a handful of "designer " label gear in DDs collection India, China, China,Turkey, Bangladesh.

I went with my MIL shopping for Eastex recently, nice old ladies brand, China.

Sports wear brands Northface/Berghaus Indonesia,China.

M&S undies Sri Lanka.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hugo Boss, Armarni and Barbour don't come from the same places.

Just how is the consumer meant to know where this stuff comes from. price/brand simply isn't a differentiator. Global capitalism dictates what you get and from where. Token gestures can be made but it won't stop the tide any more than Canute could.

michaels

And even if you know the country of origin, do you boycott it on the grounds that some workers in that country have poor conditions or do you somehow have to find out the policy of the company you are buying from and how well it is enforced?

CLAPTON

The workers in these countries are poor.

They work in bad conditions for low wages because it is the best job available.

Boycotting their products, whilst is may make one feel virtuous, will simply lead them into even deeper poverty.

wotsthat

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Just how is the consumer meant to know where this stuff comes from. price/brand simply isn't a differentiator. Global capitalism dictates what you get and from where. Token gestures can be made but it won't stop the tide any more than Canute could.

You could check the ethical trade initiative website for your retailer http://www.ethicaltrade.org/. There's also the SEDEX website which is more food based http://www.sedexglobal.com/about-sedex/members/list-of-members/.

Both schemes have led to an improvement in conditions for workers.

A lot of it does come down to branding - do you think Next or Primark is likely to have the most credible ethical trade policy? Would you buy from the market where there's zero provenance?

Garment quality is another thing to look for. Better quality requires better skills and will cost more in wages. The factories producing garments for Next in Bangladesh will be poaching the good staff from the factory making stuff for Primark. That's not knocking Primark because they'll be poaching from the next factory down until you get to the factory making stuff for Dubai or the local market where working conditions aren't considered to be of importance at all.

It's far from ideal but change does happen all too often as a result of a tragedy like this. A good example is the Morcambe Bay cockle picker deaths which directly led to much stricter gangmaster regulation.

grizzly1911

michaels wrote: »

how well it is enforced?

That is the key.

I am sure many retailers didn't expect to find horse meat in their ready meals.

ash28

Generali wrote: »

Sorry to say but this is BS. Nobody in the UK starves, everyone can afford meat.

If you want to justify your little luxuries on the back of dead children then so be it. I think it's immoral.

That's a bit harsh tbh. Lots of premium brands use what we would term sweatshop labour.....(the brands you mention in an earlier post) Nike has been lambasted since at least the 1990s for the treatment of it's overseas workforce. Gap has also come under the spotlight and Apple and the conditions of Foxconn employees has been highlighted more than once.

Gap...please don't credit them with having any ethics.....they don't.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1567849/Gap-sweatshop-children-saved-in-India-raid.html

and they refused to sign up to a fire safety programme in Bangladesh....

http://laborrights.org/creating-a-sweatfree-world/resources/statement-regarding-gap%E2%80%99s-refusal-to-agree-to-a-fire-safety-pro

Nike
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2014325/Nike-workers-kicked-slapped-verbally-abused-factories-making-Converse-line-Indonesia.html

Apple
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/Revealed-Inside-Apples-Chinese-sweatshop-factory-workers-paid-just-1-12-hour.html

The trouble is they all generally use subcontract manufacturers, who in turn use employment agencies who often charge the prospective employee an arm and leg for the privilege of working for them.....and then keep their pay until the debt is cleared.

I don't think in all honesty any of our big retailers are particularly ethical and neither are most designer brands.

It's all about profit...make it cheap and sell it here at a premium and that goes for just about all UK retailers.....they all spout "ethical, responsible and fair" but the reality is far from that.


A bit on Asda.

http://www.labourbehindthelabel.org/resources/item/download/144

grizzly1911

wotsthat wrote: »

You could check the ethical trade initiative website for your retailer http://www.ethicaltrade.org/. There's also the SEDEX website which is more food based http://www.sedexglobal.com/about-sedex/members/list-of-members/.

Both schemes have led to an improvement in conditions for workers.

Might be historic marketing:-


Spanish high street brand Mango, British Primark and Italian Benetton. On their website, factories list wellknown brands as customers including C&A, KIK and Wal-Mart. These brands were also involved in the fire at the Tazreen factory, not far from Savar, where 112 workers died in a fire exactly five months ago

http://www.cleanclothes.org/media-inquiries/press-releases/labels-primark-and-mango-found-after-factory-collapse-bangladesh

Full ETI members

Asda (Walmart?)
Primark (ABF)

Foundation Member

C&A

http://www.ethicaltrade.org/about-eti/our-members

wotsthat

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Might be historic marketing:-


Spanish high street brand Mango, British Primark and Italian Benetton. On their website, factories list wellknown brands as customers including C&A, KIK and Wal-Mart. These brands were also involved in the fire at the Tazreen factory, not far from Savar, where 112 workers died in a fire exactly five months ago

http://www.cleanclothes.org/media-inquiries/press-releases/labels-primark-and-mango-found-after-factory-collapse-bangladesh

Full ETI members

Asda (Walmart?)
Primark (ABF)

Foundation Member

C&A

http://www.ethicaltrade.org/about-eti/our-members

Working conditions in third world countries can be poor. Whilst a number of retailers will be doing the bare minimum to allow a marketing claim more are doing something positive.

Take flowers or green beans imported from Kenya. The sites that export to the UK will have better working conditions than the sites exporting to, say, the middle-east. That's because UK retailers think their customers want them to improve. You're likely to see decent medical facilities on site and even schools. Those things aren't achieved with lip service or a marketing strapline.

It's an uphill struggle but worth it - we get cheaper goods than we can produce ourselves and they get money they need and pressure on their employers to improve conditions. I reckon trade is much more effective than charity over the long term in decreasing poverty.

People work in Bangladeshi clothing factories because the alternatives are less attractive - our trade means they have some (limited) choice.

wotsthat

ash28 wrote: »

That's a bit harsh tbh. Lots of premium brands use what we would term sweatshop labour.....(the brands you mention in an earlier post) Nike has been lambasted since at least the 1990s for the treatment of it's overseas workforce. Gap has also come under the spotlight and Apple and the conditions of Foxconn employees has been highlighted more than once.

Gap...please don't credit them with having any ethics.....they don't.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1567849/Gap-sweatshop-children-saved-in-India-raid.html

and they refused to sign up to a fire safety programme in Bangladesh....

http://laborrights.org/creating-a-sweatfree-world/resources/statement-regarding-gap%E2%80%99s-refusal-to-agree-to-a-fire-safety-pro

Nike
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2014325/Nike-workers-kicked-slapped-verbally-abused-factories-making-Converse-line-Indonesia.html

Apple
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/Revealed-Inside-Apples-Chinese-sweatshop-factory-workers-paid-just-1-12-hour.html

A bit on Asda.

http://www.labourbehindthelabel.org/resources/item/download/144

Notice you've picked 4 American companies?

ash28 wrote: »

The trouble is they all generally use subcontract manufacturers, who in turn use employment agencies who often charge the prospective employee an arm and leg for the privilege of working for them.....and then keep their pay until the debt is cleared.

I don't think in all honesty any of our big retailers are particularly ethical and neither are most designer brands.

It's all about profit...make it cheap and sell it here at a premium and that goes for just about all UK retailers.....they all spout "ethical, responsible and fair" but the reality is far from that.

Sorry you are wrong.

If you pick up an own label product from Tesco, Sainsburys or Waitrose then the employees won't have to pay fees to work or have pay withheld. It's part of their policy and it's checked independently.