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High public debt = low economic growth ?

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Comments

  • Moby
    Moby Posts: 3,917 Forumite
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    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    That's a defeatist attitude. The right management team can make a difference. Not least by employing the right people beneath them. :rotfl:

    Good working practices can make that toothpaste last longer. As more comes out of the tube. Almost magically.


    I suppose you mean the 'right people' will squeeze the poor and disadvantaged even more. Full of humanism aren't you!
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
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    Moby wrote: »
    I suppose you mean the 'right people' will squeeze the poor and disadvantaged even more. Full of humanism aren't you!


    The reason we all enjoy the current high standard of living is precisely because fewer people than formally are required to produce the things we need/want.

    If it weren't so, 95% of us would be working on the land and living a beare subsistence existance.
    The introduction of tractors, machinery in general, computerisation etc has made us all much richer.
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
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    There will come a point of diminishing returns where extra squeezing isn't making any improvements.

    Squeeze hasn't even started yet. Pay and conditions in the public sector is far above private sector. Productivity is lower. Sickness rates are higher.

    Put a good private sector CEO in charge of some public sector organisations and they'll be out on strike in minutes.
  • grizzly1911
    grizzly1911 Posts: 9,965 Forumite
    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    Squeeze hasn't even started yet. Pay and conditions in the public sector is far above private sector. Productivity is lower. Sickness rates are higher.

    Put a good private sector CEO in charge of some public sector organisations and they'll be out on strike in minutes.

    What do you see as some?

    The squeeze has been going on for some time in many areas. Like a balloon unless you take the air (requirement) out it just pops up somewhere else?

    How do you measure productivity? How productive, in the round, was Rich Ricci? Driving out short term savings to prove productivity isn't really that much use if the long term cost to society and the organisation, as a whole, doesn't improve.

    Many public sector jobs have been outsourced at the lower levels leaving behind a greater proportion of skilled qualified staff on higher average pay.

    Is this wholesale across the public sector or pockets?

    If a CEO would alienate his staff, in minutes, I would question whether he was any good to start with.
    "If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....

    "big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham
  • ILW
    ILW Posts: 18,333 Forumite
    What do you see as some?

    The squeeze has been going on for some time in many areas. Like a balloon unless you take the air (requirement) out it just pops up somewhere else?

    How do you measure productivity? How productive, in the round, was Rich Ricci? Driving out short term savings to prove productivity isn't really that much use if the long term cost to society and the organisation, as a whole, doesn't improve.

    Many public sector jobs have been outsourced at the lower levels leaving behind a greater proportion of skilled qualified staff on higher average pay.

    Is this wholesale across the public sector or pockets?

    If a CEO would alienate his staff, in minutes, I would question whether he was any good to start with.

    Alienating this less able and willing staff, can be a pretty good policy if it gets them to walk away.
  • grizzly1911
    grizzly1911 Posts: 9,965 Forumite
    edited 19 April 2013 at 2:57PM
    ILW wrote: »
    Alienating this less able and willing staff, can be a pretty good policy if it gets them to walk away.

    Depends if you lose the trust and goodwill of those you may choose to keep in the process. You may find you simply end up with the good ones going, because they can and you are left with the less able who will "fight" you all the way or will cost the most to remove.

    In a lot of cases they simply take early retirement, remain as a taxpayer payroll cost but do nothing, whilst new blood is employed.
    "If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....

    "big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham
  • coastline
    coastline Posts: 1,662 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    edited 19 April 2013 at 3:54PM
    If the economy had been growing at normal..2%-3%...then I doubt we would hear anything about national debt and budget deficits.
    Around election time and a near balanced budget all you would hear from the government is how they've put the.. Great back into Britain..
    All that would have happened was a set of cuts across the board and a boost to the funds from economic growth...job done.
    Theres no evidence to suggest any government would attempt extra cuts to run a surplus....same old chart.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmtreasury/5260056945/
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    If a CEO would alienate his staff, in minutes, I would question whether he was any good to start with.

    Not necessarily. There's often or not the silent majority of employees. Winning them over with good management at all levels is the key.

    If you listen to Adam Crozier talk about the way he turned the Royal Mail round. You'll understand better what I'm talking about. Some people have the skill set to take on the worst of challenges. In a sense a dysfunctional organisation. Where the culture is maintained by the status quo.

    If the UK is going to compete with the emerging nations then it has to regain its spirit of the past. As there's people who are hungry for our lifestyles. Sitting back and doing nothing will merely see us being overtaken.
  • grizzly1911
    grizzly1911 Posts: 9,965 Forumite
    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    Not necessarily. There's often or not the silent majority of employees. Winning them over with good management at all levels is the key.

    If you listen to Adam Crozier talk about the way he turned the Royal Mail round. You'll understand better what I'm talking about. Some people have the skill set to take on the worst of challenges. In a sense a dysfunctional organisation. Where the culture is maintained by the status quo.

    If the UK is going to compete with the emerging nations then it has to regain its spirit of the past. As there's people who are hungry for our lifestyles. Sitting back and doing nothing will merely see us being overtaken.


    Is the Royal Nail a real success story or did just lopping of branches, denuding the service, leaving a poor quality expensive product meet the performance targets to ensure a nice £2m salary package?

    Arguably it still is a dysfunctional organisation.

    Not to mention passing the pension liability over the fence.
    "If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....

    "big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    A fundamental point is being overlooked here. While R&R's arithmetic error means that there is no sudden drop in GDP as government debt hits 90%, there is still an effect where the higher the debt is, the lower growth is.

    Outside of the UK, a debt:GDP ratio of more than 90% is consistent with a 1% lower growth rate for 25 years. That means that after 25 years GDP is 23% lower than where it would be if the very high debts hadn't been incurred.

    It's a double whammy for the next generation: higher debts to repay and less income to pay them with. Ouch!
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